This Group

[Grant Robertson]

Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

[Shy OZ Guy]

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

Grant,
well, I don't have the time or luxury to behave in a crazy way. I'm
divorced, and don't have any girlfriends (could be something to do
with my shyness).
So, if this meets your criteria, I'm quite happy to hear about
anything you want to say....?

[JimSummers]

Post by Shy OZ Guy
Grant,

well, I don't have the time or luxury to behave >in a crazy way


Translation: people who speak of cold brutal reality make Grant's baby
tummy ache. Take some TUMS baby Huey, it should feel better in about an
hour or so.

[dan74]

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

This group has never had a particularly sane reputation.

You say only three married/attached guys here are sane, and the other
two
are women.

Well, shy women usually don't suffer in dating as much as
shy males (well known mantra here at a.s.s.), and maybe
the guys who are married/attached did not have a severe/
debilitating form of shyness to begin with (except maybe RonW).

The rest of the people here might have such a debilitating
form of shyness that it drove them insane.
Or, maybe they had deeper issues to begin with.

Either way, it's difficult to judge, and I doubt you're in a position
to judge the sanity of people here anyway.

Post by Grant Robertson
From your posts, it sounds like you've had some success

with women, and you're simply going through a rough patch.
I would suggest to try and be more optimistic, and simply
keep doing what you've been doing.

I think you have a good chance of getting out of your rut-
a much better chance than some of the trapped
long timers here.
Good luck.

[phy]

Post by dan74
I think you have a good chance of getting out of your rut-
a much better chance than some of the trapped
long timers here.
Good luck.

Things turned around for me after I started taking zoloft for stress
related chest pains. It was like this:

I was sittin' in the bathtub countin' my toes
When the radiator broke, the water all froze
Stuck in the ice, without my clothes
Naked as the eyes of a clown.
I was cryin' ice cubes, hopin' I'd croak
When the sun come through the window, the ice all broke
I stood up and laughed, thoguht it was a joke,
That's the way the world goes round....

John Prine.

-phy

[Troll]

Post by phy

Post by dan74
I think you have a good chance of getting out of your rut-
a much better chance than some of the trapped
long timers here.
Good luck.

Things turned around for me after I started taking zoloft for stress
I was sittin' in the bathtub countin' my toes
When the radiator broke, the water all froze
Stuck in the ice, without my clothes
Naked as the eyes of a clown.
I was cryin' ice cubes, hopin' I'd croak
When the sun come through the window, the ice all broke
I stood up and laughed, thoguht it was a joke,
That's the way the world goes round....
John Prine.
-phy

So what you say is that an antidepressant altered your view of reality like
in a philip dick novel.

[phy]

Post by Troll
So what you say is that an antidepressant altered your view of reality
like in a philip dick novel.

I definately helped change my perspective. Life didin't have to suck
anymore. I think it can be a good thing just for that reason. YMMV.

-phy(better living through chemistry)

[Troll]

Post by phy

Post by Troll
So what you say is that an antidepressant altered your view of reality
like in a philip dick novel.

I definately helped change my perspective. Life didin't have to suck
anymore. I think it can be a good thing just for that reason. YMMV.
-phy(better living through chemistry)

Would you attribute this just to zoloft, or creative chemicals as well?

[phy]

Post by Troll

Post by phy

Post by Troll
So what you say is that an antidepressant altered your view of reality
like in a philip dick novel.

I definately helped change my perspective. Life didin't have to suck
anymore. I think it can be a good thing just for that reason. YMMV.
-phy(better living through chemistry)

Would you attribute this just to zoloft, or creative chemicals as well?

My doctor said many people try to self medicate. It seemed like it worked
for me for a little while, but in the end, it was a bad idea.

-phy

[Lisa]

Post by dan74

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

This group has never had a particularly sane reputation.

<snipped>

Post by dan74
I think you have a good chance of getting out of your rut-
a much better chance than some of the trapped
long timers here.
Good luck.

These people aren't trapped. They're holding their own key just like
everyone else in the world. The difference is most people learn
eventually - some sooner than others - what to do with the key, while
the ones you refer to are using it to scratch their a.s.s.'s. even when
you hand them a diagram. Especially then.

[Troll]

Post by Lisa

Post by dan74

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people
in this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately,
there seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those
people are women and the other three are men who are married or have
a long time girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just
happens to be shy.

This group has never had a particularly sane reputation.

<snipped>

Post by dan74
I think you have a good chance of getting out of your rut-
a much better chance than some of the trapped
long timers here.
Good luck.

These people aren't trapped. They're holding their own key just like
everyone else in the world. The difference is most people learn
eventually - some sooner than others - what to do with the key, while
the ones you refer to are using it to scratch their a.s.s.'s. even
when you hand them a diagram. Especially then.

Let's see. The percentage of shy people with similar problems by far
exceeds the percentage of female apologists, wussies and females who have
no problem getting some idiot to fuck their fat ass. Females and their
wussial girlfriends don't belong here.

[Lisa]

Post by Troll

Post by Lisa

Post by dan74

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people
in this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately,
there seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those
people are women and the other three are men who are married or have
a long time girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just
happens to be shy.

This group has never had a particularly sane reputation.

<snipped>

Post by dan74
I think you have a good chance of getting out of your rut-
a much better chance than some of the trapped
long timers here.
Good luck.

These people aren't trapped. They're holding their own key just like
everyone else in the world. The difference is most people learn
eventually - some sooner than others - what to do with the key, while
the ones you refer to are using it to scratch their a.s.s.'s. even
when you hand them a diagram. Especially then.

Let's see. The percentage of shy people with similar problems by far
exceeds the percentage of female apologists, wussies and females who have
no problem getting some idiot to fuck their fat ass. Females and their
wussial girlfriends don't belong here.

*lol* :) I don't need to reply to people, it's enough just to let them
read you.

[dan74]

Post by Lisa
while
the ones you refer to are using it to scratch their a.s.s.'s. even when
you hand them a diagram. Especially then.

Do you have a diagram to share with the group?

[Lisa]

Post by dan74

Post by Lisa
while
the ones you refer to are using it to scratch their a.s.s.'s. even when
you hand them a diagram. Especially then.

Do you have a diagram to share with the group?

Yep, and I've been sharing since around 2002-03. I practiced what I
preached (as well as what I learned from this group) and it worked. Not
that this makes any difference to the people who just want to complain
without putting any actual work into it.

[dan74]

Post by Lisa

Post by dan74
Do you have a diagram to share with the group?

Yep, and I've been sharing since around 2002-03. I practiced what I
preached (as well as what I learned from this group) and it worked. Not
that this makes any difference to the people who just want to complain
without putting any actual work into it.

*Sigh*

I thought it was a literal diagram, nice and concise...something that
could
be sent as a jpeg file.

[Lisa]

Post by dan74

Post by Lisa

Post by dan74
Do you have a diagram to share with the group?

Yep, and I've been sharing since around 2002-03. I practiced what I
preached (as well as what I learned from this group) and it worked. Not
that this makes any difference to the people who just want to complain
without putting any actual work into it.

*Sigh*
I thought it was a literal diagram, nice and concise...something that
could
be sent as a jpeg file.

:) Don't be sad. I could make you a flow chart if you want.

[s***@shy.net]

I've been out of the loop here for a few years, but what Grant says
impressed me, too. And I find it odd that some women classify
themselves as shy. Women can just say "yes" or "no" to a man; but a
man does not have that advanantage.
With the male, it starts in early childhood. Girls will act toward
one boy one way, and act differently to another. This is usually
about age 11 or 12. And as quickly as age 13, a boy's shyness pattern
has set in. This happens when the girls act hostile to or disgusted
with him. And the boy quickily becomes "marked". And girls see this
invisible mark. He carries this throughout life, unless, in rare
instances, there are radical changes.
By about 15, he carries that mark. I've spoken on this before, under
a different personna some years ago here, and got some hot denials
from a few women posters. But it is true, nontehless.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 12:09:09 -0500, Grant Robertson

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

[meg]

Post by s***@shy.net
I've been out of the loop here for a few years, but what Grant says
impressed me, too. And I find it odd that some women classify
themselves as shy. Women can just say "yes" or "no" to a man; but a
man does not have that advanantage.

Women have to be approachable enough to be in a position of being able to
say yes or no. If you're stuck staring at the flour and not talking to
anyone it's not long before you're apparently invisible to men. You also
have to have female friends, as a lot of girls get dates through a network
of acquaintances. I would have said yes to nearly anyone who asked me (I
had a mental list of guys who I would have said no to a first date with,
out of my entire college it was only 2-3). But it didn't matter, I was
never asked - because of my shyness.

But this has all been argued before, so I won't put any real effort into
it...

[Don Juan Rodenta]

Post by meg
If you're stuck staring at the flour

We've all been there, love.

[meg]

Post by Don Juan Rodenta

Post by meg
If you're stuck staring at the flour

We've all been there, love.

In the bakery? Yea it really is hard to meet people there...

[Troll]

Post by meg
You also
have to have female friends, as a lot of girls get dates through a
network of acquaintances.

No, it's because females CHOOSE to get dates this way because they don't
trust their own judgements. They have to take advice from their friends all
the time, gossip the men who approach them and seek approval for them from
their network of female bitches.

As a result, men who don't have the social proof required and the
acceptance of those bitches have zero chances, till they manage to get into
that circle and have someone introduce them to some slut who just happened
to be single for 1 day and seeks another branch to hold on to.

[phy]

Post by Troll
No, it's because females CHOOSE to get dates this way because they
don't trust their own judgements. They have to take advice from their
friends all the time, gossip the men who approach them and seek
approval for them from their network of female bitches.

Hey Troll, how many dates have you been on?

-phy

[JimSummers]

Post by s***@shy.net
I've been out of the loop here for a few years, but what Grant says

impressed me, too. And I find it odd that some women classify themselves
as shy. Women can just say "yes" or "no" to a >man; but a man does not
have that advanantage.


This looks like "Hate against women", OW MY ACHING LITTLE BABY TUMMY!!!!
Stop this at once you crazy heartless man!

"Life is what I make it like when you build those cereal box fortresses
and you sit back there and go yipee I have a fortress and I'm Batman!"-
Grant Robertson

[Lisa]

Post by s***@shy.net
I've been out of the loop here for a few years, but what Grant says
impressed me, too. And I find it odd that some women classify
themselves as shy. Women can just say "yes" or "no" to a man; but a
man does not have that advanantage.
With the male, it starts in early childhood. Girls will act toward
one boy one way, and act differently to another. This is usually
about age 11 or 12. And as quickly as age 13, a boy's shyness pattern
has set in. This happens when the girls act hostile to or disgusted
with him. And the boy quickily becomes "marked". And girls see this
invisible mark. He carries this throughout life, unless, in rare
instances, there are radical changes.
By about 15, he carries that mark. I've spoken on this before, under
a different personna some years ago here, and got some hot denials
from a few women posters. But it is true, nontehless.

There are advantages and disadvantages to being either sex. You
shouldn't make it into "us against them" else you defeat your own
purpose. Empathize and use the knowledge gained from empathy to your
advantage.

[Troll]

Post by Lisa

Post by s***@shy.net
I've been out of the loop here for a few years, but what Grant says
impressed me, too. And I find it odd that some women classify
themselves as shy. Women can just say "yes" or "no" to a man; but a
man does not have that advanantage.
With the male, it starts in early childhood. Girls will act toward
one boy one way, and act differently to another. This is usually
about age 11 or 12. And as quickly as age 13, a boy's shyness pattern
has set in. This happens when the girls act hostile to or disgusted
with him. And the boy quickily becomes "marked". And girls see this
invisible mark. He carries this throughout life, unless, in rare
instances, there are radical changes.
By about 15, he carries that mark. I've spoken on this before, under
a different personna some years ago here, and got some hot denials
from a few women posters. But it is true, nontehless.

There are advantages and disadvantages to being either sex. You
shouldn't make it into "us against them" else you defeat your own
purpose. Empathize and use the knowledge gained from empathy to your
advantage.

Your remark just shows how completely useless you are, writing female
meaningless BS that looks like stuff copied from romantic novels.

[Lisa]

Post by Troll

Post by Lisa

Post by s***@shy.net
I've been out of the loop here for a few years, but what Grant says
impressed me, too. And I find it odd that some women classify
themselves as shy. Women can just say "yes" or "no" to a man; but a
man does not have that advanantage.
With the male, it starts in early childhood. Girls will act toward
one boy one way, and act differently to another. This is usually
about age 11 or 12. And as quickly as age 13, a boy's shyness pattern
has set in. This happens when the girls act hostile to or disgusted
with him. And the boy quickily becomes "marked". And girls see this
invisible mark. He carries this throughout life, unless, in rare
instances, there are radical changes.
By about 15, he carries that mark. I've spoken on this before, under
a different personna some years ago here, and got some hot denials
from a few women posters. But it is true, nontehless.

There are advantages and disadvantages to being either sex. You
shouldn't make it into "us against them" else you defeat your own
purpose. Empathize and use the knowledge gained from empathy to your
advantage.

Your remark just shows how completely useless you are, writing female
meaningless BS that looks like stuff copied from romantic novels.

That was paraphrased from "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu, genius.

[u***@hotmail.com]

Post by Lisa

Post by Troll

Post by Lisa

Post by s***@shy.net
I've been out of the loop here for a few years, but what Grant says
impressed me, too. And I find it odd that some women classify
themselves as shy. Women can just say "yes" or "no" to a man; but a
man does not have that advanantage.
With the male, it starts in early childhood. Girls will act toward
one boy one way, and act differently to another. This is usually
about age 11 or 12. And as quickly as age 13, a boy's shyness pattern
has set in. This happens when the girls act hostile to or disgusted
with him. And the boy quickily becomes "marked". And girls see this
invisible mark. He carries this throughout life, unless, in rare
instances, there are radical changes.
By about 15, he carries that mark. I've spoken on this before, under
a different personna some years ago here, and got some hot denials
from a few women posters. But it is true, nontehless.

There are advantages and disadvantages to being either sex. You
shouldn't make it into "us against them" else you defeat your own
purpose. Empathize and use the knowledge gained from empathy to your
advantage.

Your remark just shows how completely useless you are, writing female
meaningless BS that looks like stuff copied from romantic novels.

That was paraphrased from "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu, genius.

LOL!
Problem is that Troll only looks for what he doesn't like in women and
never notices the qualities that he might like.
If he started loving women instead of hating them some girl may even
take an interest in him.

[Lisa]

Post by u***@hotmail.com

Post by Lisa

Post by Troll

Post by Lisa

Post by s***@shy.net
I've been out of the loop here for a few years, but what Grant says
impressed me, too. And I find it odd that some women classify
themselves as shy. Women can just say "yes" or "no" to a man; but a
man does not have that advanantage.
With the male, it starts in early childhood. Girls will act toward
one boy one way, and act differently to another. This is usually
about age 11 or 12. And as quickly as age 13, a boy's shyness pattern
has set in. This happens when the girls act hostile to or disgusted
with him. And the boy quickily becomes "marked". And girls see this
invisible mark. He carries this throughout life, unless, in rare
instances, there are radical changes.
By about 15, he carries that mark. I've spoken on this before, under
a different personna some years ago here, and got some hot denials
from a few women posters. But it is true, nontehless.

There are advantages and disadvantages to being either sex. You
shouldn't make it into "us against them" else you defeat your own
purpose. Empathize and use the knowledge gained from empathy to your
advantage.

Your remark just shows how completely useless you are, writing female
meaningless BS that looks like stuff copied from romantic novels.

That was paraphrased from "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu, genius.

LOL!
Problem is that Troll only looks for what he doesn't like in women and
never notices the qualities that he might like.
If he started loving women instead of hating them some girl may even
take an interest in him.

Probably never happen. He's scared to give someone something he doesn't
want broken.

[William P]

Post by Lisa

Post by Troll

Post by Lisa
There are advantages and disadvantages to being either sex. You
shouldn't make it into "us against them" else you defeat your own
purpose. Empathize and use the knowledge gained from empathy to your
advantage.

Your remark just shows how completely useless you are, writing female
meaningless BS that looks like stuff copied from romantic novels.

That was paraphrased from "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu, genius.

He doesn't know his enemy or himself.

[JimSummers]

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high

proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I would
have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in this
newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there seem to

Post by Grant Robertson
only be about 5 people who aren't crazy.

You are such a hysterical baby, you are how old? 47? Grow up! Stop
distorting the world to regulate your emotional feeling states and start
getting a clue about what life really is, the only insane person here is
YOU who wants to deny that women are essentially just instinct monsters
out to give sex to the biggest alpha males.

All of the bogus rubbish about personality is just Hollywood garbage that
you believe in because it gives you hope and little goobers like you need
hope in the way that a 5 year old needs Santa Claus. How many of those
fake "self-help" books have you read? 500? 1,000? You don't know that
those are just written to make money? GET A CLUE, they are nothing but
lies on every page. Every word out of your mouth is just some bogus feel
good cliche, "is this the first day of the rest of my life?", Dr. Phil?
: 0 "Is life what I make it?" : 0

Dump the fucking scooter (are you trying to save the environment? Like
women give a rat's ass about that! They date jocks who throw beer cans out
of cars moving 95 MPH on the highway everynight!), and either become what
women desire (Donald Trump) and obtain some brutal raw power over other
human beings (what women want is a man to prove his worth by literally
owning human slaves!) or get a fucking hobby and avoid women like the
utter vicious plague that they are.

But all of this whiny "I don't want to believe such and such because it
hurts my young little tummy" is so pathetic. The world doesn't give a fuck
what you think about it or what you want it to be, it goes right on moving
as WHAT IT IS and there isn't anything you can do about it so give up the
denial bullshit.

"Grant Robertson"? What kind of horseshit fake name is that anyway? You
might as well call yourself "Baby Ray Cyrus and the Hillbilly Barnacle
Band"

[MorrowRd]

Grant, don't listen to this piece of shit. This guy goes from right
to left with what he posts. Sometimes he tries to kind of be helpful,
the next time he might share a fantasy of licking woman's heels.

Although I did chuckle reading "get rid of the fucking scooter".

MR

[JimSummers]

Post by MorrowRd
Grant, don't listen to this piece of shit.

And who the hell are you? Go start a new forum with your lover Grant and
make sweet love to him because you bore the shit out of me.

Post by MorrowRd
Sometimes he tries to kind of be helpful,

the next time he might share a fantasy of licking >woman's heels.


What's wrong with having a high heel fetish? Who does it harm?

Post by MorrowRd
Although I did chuckle reading "get rid of the >fucking scooter".

Of course you did, everyone laughs at that old dope for thinking he is
saving the environment, however in reality it is probably just a defense
mechanism because he either can't afford a car or doesn't know how to
drive one.

[MorrowRd]

< And who the hell are you? Go start a new forum with your lover Grant
and make sweet love to him because you bore the shit out of me.>

I bore you huh? So why did you take the time to read my boring post?


< What's wrong with having a high heel fetish? Who does it harm? >


Jim, I've been a member here for 3 years - long enough to see the
pattern of your posts. You post your hatred of women at times, other
times post pictures of your dream girl, and other times post
fantasies. (The high heel fetish being ONE.)

Getting control of your mind is imperative to getting control of your
life. (Fix the within and you fix the without) That's what we talk
about in here with the serious posts like Grants - how to fix things
we don't like about our lives.

Fetishes like the kind you post send up smoke signals that spell the
word [impulsive]. Impulsive behavior is out of control, ungrounded,
and automatic. A rut you need to get out of before you can make
changes.

I'm sure you'll post some disagreeing rant back to this post but I
think you know inside that you need to get control of your mind. I
don't recommend counseling either - it's possible to fix yourself.

As far as the scooter goes, yeah I found humor in it because nerds and
scooters go together like mopeds and old people. However, once Grant
achieves a healthy level of confidence, he can go back to the scooter
and not care what people think.

I don't give a shit what people think of me. There are people who
think I'm a geek too...although none have the guts to tell me to my
face. But I'm not about to learn about sports, or pretend to like
them just to fit into the jock crowd. I'm not going to pretend I
enjoy going to the bar and I am uniformed (because I don't care) about
the latest nascar update. Nor do I care about hunting, fishing, porn,
or any of the typical alpha things.

I have better things to think about.

That's what being a man is about - being yourself. And when you have
that power to be yourself, you end up helping others around you
because you become a role model with your life, teaching others
stability in a world where everyone is trying to find themselves.

Try it sometime Jim. Take off the panties and discard the high heels,
put on some work boots. Go be a man. You might find the hat fits a
little better.

MR

[JimSummers]

Post by MorrowRd
Getting control of your mind is imperative to getting control of your

life. (Fix the within and you fix the without) That's what we talk
about in here with the serious posts like Grants ->how to fix things we
don't like about our lives.


Oh please, if only Grant would talk about fixing ourselves I'd have no
problem with him, but much of what he posts is about trying to control his
feeling states by IMAGINING a different reality out there. Do you know how
many people I've been around like that in my lifetime? Too many and it
threw me off course for so many years that I certainly can't condone it in
a group like this where people need more than anything else, THE TRUTH.

When I was a child my father would come home from work every night with
some new "life is like..." statement that was quickly thrown together so
that he could try to invent a new "philosophy" to explain what had
happened to him in his previous 8 hours. Do you know how confusing that is
for a child? To have your father who is supposed to be a role model/leader
bring you a different "life is like.." statement everyday that was often
the opposite of what he had just told you the previous evening? And how
about if your Mom was also giving you the same sort of confusing mixed
messages?

If there's one thing I will not tolerate from Grant it is bullshit
half-ass cliched junk designed to make him "feel-good", sorry but I've
heard enough of that to last a lifetime. And you know what? Shybies just
don't get it, there are millions of extroverted men out there fucking
women everynight who are 100% successful with women who think women are
just slutty whores/objects for the taking, so cut the crap, what you
"feel" about women has no bearing on how well you "do with them". My
grandmother (who died recently) lived in Florida and she had a male
neighbor who was 40 unemployed and he treated women like dirt but he was
in bed with a new woman every night.

This guy was so crude and ill-mannered that when he went out to eat with
my father, uncle, and grandmother to a Ryan's Steak House in Jacksonville
he started graphically describing performing oral sex on a woman in front
of them right at the table!

So cut the crap, we don't need to be like Granty wanty and go soft on
women in order to get women, that is another bullshit paradigm he invented
in his own mind.

Post by MorrowRd
As far as the scooter goes, yeah I found humor in it because nerds and

scooters go together like mopeds and old people. However, once Grant
achieves a healthy level of confidence, he can go back to the scooter and
not care what people >think.


You are more aware of reality than he is, he's been brainwashed by so
many of those false self-help books he simply has no idea how a normal
woman views him.

Post by MorrowRd
I don't give a shit what people think of me. There are people who think

I'm a geek too...although none have the guts to tell me to my
face. But I'm not about to learn about sports, or pretend to like them
just to fit into the jock crowd. I'm not going to pretend I enjoy going
to the bar and I am uniformed (because I don't care) about the latest
nascar update. Nor do I care about hunting, fishing, porn, or any of the

Post by MorrowRd
typical alpha things.

Here again you show that you are far more aware than Grant. Self deluded
nerds like Grant aren't even aware that women view the world in terms of
alpha vs. non-alpha. A guy like Grant probably imagines that you can be an
adult man and still sleep on Star Wars sheets and a female will say,
"Cool", he simply has no awareness of what women are and if you try to
inform him on the truth he will label you as "crazy" or a "woman-hater".
Essentially he is someone who can't handle the natural process of
collecting information about something and then interpreting it as
possessing undesirable traits. To Grant if he truly accepted that women
had a set of common negative personality traits it would make him want to
cry or kill himself.

Post by MorrowRd
Try it sometime Jim. Take off the panties and discard the high heels, put

on some work boots. Go be a man. You might find the hat fits a >little
better.


LOL, I don't wear panties or high heels, but I'll give you credit for
having the courage to form a rational argument, at least you aren't
completely deluded but I still can't comprehend why you defend someone
like Grant who hysterically rushes to label people "crazy" if they say
anything that makes his tender emotions uncomfortable.

[MorrowRd]

< If there's one thing I will not tolerate from Grant it is bullshit
half-ass cliched junk designed to make him "feel-good", sorry but
I've
heard enough of that to last a lifetime.>


This is a 'support group' in case you forgot. Grant is doing exactly
as he should be doing if he wants feedback - disclosing what he has
done, what he has tried up until now.

Then there's our job, giving the feedback. Hopefully the information
is helpful and constructive.


< And you know what? Shybies just don't get it, there are millions of
extroverted men out there fucking women everynight who are 100%
successful with women who think women are just slutty whores/objects
for the taking>


Shybies do get it and so do you. We all know that there are low-
life's who are out there in relationships with women they don't
deserve. I can't count the times I saw a woman I was attracted to
with a man who treated her like a doormat and wishing I had the chance
someday to show a woman that there is a man who will treat them like a
lady.


< so cut the crap, what you "feel" about women has no bearing on how
well you "do with them". >


I agree with this statement. How you feel has nothing to do with
success.

However, that's when agenda's come into play - you need an action
plan, a system to follow to get your foot in the door so the woman
gets a chance to see that there is a difference between you (and your
feelings about treating women) and the other trash they've been
dating.


< This guy was so crude and ill-mannered that when he went out to eat
with my father, uncle, and grandmother to a Ryan's Steak House in
Jacksonville he started graphically describing performing oral sex on
a woman in front of them right at the table! >


What's that got to do with anything. I know a couple of men like this
myself. Trashy guys dating and being disrespectful to women with low
self worth. This is not something uncommon - I'm sure we ALL know a
similar story. Its a society thing that will never change.



< So cut the crap, we don't need to be like Granty wanty and go soft
on
women in order to get women, that is another bullshit paradigm he
invented in his own mind. >


Again, we're here to give feedback and possibly insight on a different
way to do things based on how we do things. At least that's what I do
- all my responses come from my own life learning.


< You are more aware of reality than he is, he's been brainwashed by
so
many of those false self-help books he simply has no idea how a
normal
woman views him. >


Everyone has to start from somewhere. At my lowest point I had a
backpack of shame that I carried around, ashamed of who I was, ashamed
of what I was - and when you're low, you do your best to survive and
sometimes those choices are cowardly.

I'm nowhere the person today that I was back then and it took a lot of
work, not to mention creativity finding resources. I found more self-
help in witchcraft and satanism than I had found in any other single
resource. I found tools, tools that built my willpower, my
confidence, and taught me how to create purpose. That's me, not
everyone is going to find those kinds of tools from those resources.
My point in that disclosure is to reinforce my statement that
sometimes you need to get 'creative.'

That's why I discouraged 'Mr. Spam'.

In short, a person who is desperate for help and determined to help
themselves, they will find that help, sometimes in very interesting
places. In my case, I had absolutely no one to turn to for help. So I
turned inward. And believe it or not, inside each of us (if you take
the time to look) there is a whole universe full of answers that make
sense.

I'm not so much as isolated due to my community involvement of late -
but up until this year I lived a life as a totally recluse. Besides
my job, I spent my time alone. My family (wife and son) support/ed me
in this lifestyle and adapted to not having friends, not having
company, we were a country to ourselves. In that solitude, I worked
on things, I fixed things, and now I'm finding out how some of these
systems work. (and they do)

Thus, like yourself, we now share our successes (and failures) with
our brothers here to help them along.

Post by MorrowRd
I don't give a shit what people think of me. There are people who think

< Here again you show that you are far more aware than Grant. Self
deluded nerds like Grant aren't even aware that women view the world
in terms of alpha vs. non-alpha.>

I was where Grant is. I'm willing to bet there are more in here who
identify.



< I still can't comprehend why you defend someone
like Grant who hysterically rushes to label people "crazy" if they
say
anything that makes his tender emotions uncomfortable. >


I won't waste time responding to people like Robert Mass who don't
listen to advice and are full of excuses. That's not happening here -
Grant wants to fix things, he's trying various methods on his own, he
is not allowing a disability to be an excuse, he is asking for and
taking advice.

In short, he isn't a bad investment.

MR

[JimSummers]

I won't waste time responding to people like Robert Mass who don't listen

to advice and are full of excuses. That's not happening here -
Grant wants to fix things, he's trying various methods on his own, he is
not allowing a disability to be an excuse, he is asking for and
taking advice.

In short, he isn't a bad investment.

Okay I will agree to that, as long as you aren't going to enable his
errors I can get along with you just fine. And I agree with you completely
that creating a course of action/a gameplan is far more useful than these
grandiose "the world is my oyster" mentalities.

By the way, what do you have against high heels? LOL

[u***@hotmail.com]

Post by MorrowRd
Everyone has to start from somewhere. At my lowest point I had a
backpack of shame that I carried around, ashamed of who I was, ashamed
of what I was - and when you're low, you do your best to survive and
sometimes those choices are cowardly.

hmmmm....

Post by MorrowRd
I'm nowhere the person today that I was back then and it took a lot of
work, not to mention creativity finding resources. I found more self-
help in witchcraft and satanism than I had found in any other single
resource. I found tools, tools that built my willpower, my
confidence, and taught me how to create purpose. That's me, not
everyone is going to find those kinds of tools from those resources.
My point in that disclosure is to reinforce my statement that
sometimes you need to get 'creative.'
That's why I discouraged 'Mr. Spam'.
In short, a person who is desperate for help and determined to help
themselves, they will find that help, sometimes in very interesting
places.

I would agree, that sometimes the best help is from places you have
been given to believe not to expect it in

Post by MorrowRd
In my case, I had absolutely no one to turn to for help. So I
turned inward. And believe it or not, inside each of us (if you take
the time to look) there is a whole universe full of answers that make
sense.
I'm not so much as isolated due to my community involvement of late -
but up until this year I lived a life as a totally recluse. Besides
my job, I spent my time alone. My family (wife and son) support/ed me
in this lifestyle and adapted to not having friends, not having
company, we were a country to ourselves. In that solitude, I worked
on things, I fixed things, and now I'm finding out how some of these
systems work. (and they do)

I hope especially for your son's sake that you do start to encourage
friends for him soon. He will be handicapped without them.

Post by MorrowRd
Thus, like yourself, we now share our successes (and failures) with
our brothers here to help them along.

Post by MorrowRd
I don't give a shit what people think of me. There are people who think

< Here again you show that you are far more aware than Grant. Self
deluded nerds like Grant aren't even aware that women view the world
in terms of alpha vs. non-alpha.>
I was where Grant is. I'm willing to bet there are more in here who
identify.
< I still can't comprehend why you defend someone
like Grant who hysterically rushes to label people "crazy" if they say
anything that makes his tender emotions uncomfortable. >
I won't waste time responding to people like Robert Mass who don't
listen to advice and are full of excuses. That's not happening here -
Grant wants to fix things, he's trying various methods on his own, he
is not allowing a disability to be an excuse, he is asking for and
taking advice.
In short, he isn't a bad investment.
MR

[u***@hotmail.com]

Post by MorrowRd
< And who the hell are you? Go start a new forum with your lover Grant
and make sweet love to him because you bore the shit out of me.>
I bore you huh? So why did you take the time to read my boring post?
< What's wrong with having a high heel fetish? Who does it harm? >
Jim, I've been a member here for 3 years - long enough to see the
pattern of your posts. You post your hatred of women at times, other
times post pictures of your dream girl, and other times post
fantasies. (The high heel fetish being ONE.)
Getting control of your mind is imperative to getting control of your
life. (Fix the within and you fix the without) That's what we talk
about in here with the serious posts like Grants - how to fix things
we don't like about our lives.
Fetishes like the kind you post send up smoke signals that spell the
word [impulsive]. Impulsive behavior is out of control, ungrounded,
and automatic. A rut you need to get out of before you can make
changes.
I'm sure you'll post some disagreeing rant back to this post but I
think you know inside that you need to get control of your mind. I
don't recommend counseling either - it's possible to fix yourself.
As far as the scooter goes, yeah I found humor in it because nerds and
scooters go together like mopeds and old people. However, once Grant
achieves a healthy level of confidence, he can go back to the scooter
and not care what people think.
I don't give a shit what people think of me. There are people who
think I'm a geek too...although none have the guts to tell me to my
face. But I'm not about to learn about sports, or pretend to like
them just to fit into the jock crowd. I'm not going to pretend I
enjoy going to the bar and I am uniformed (because I don't care) about
the latest nascar update. Nor do I care about hunting, fishing, porn,
or any of the typical alpha things.

Should be more of you. Geek is really not a bad thing.

Post by MorrowRd
I have better things to think about.
That's what being a man is about - being yourself. And when you have
that power to be yourself, you end up helping others around you
because you become a role model with your life, teaching others
stability in a world where everyone is trying to find themselves.
Try it sometime Jim. Take off the panties and discard the high heels,

Lots of women have fetishes about high heel shoes, why shouldn't men?

Post by MorrowRd
put on some work boots. Go be a man. You might find the hat fits a
little better.
MR

[Grant Robertson]

Post by MorrowRd
Grant, don't listen to this piece of shit. This guy goes from right
to left with what he posts. Sometimes he tries to kind of be helpful,
the next time he might share a fantasy of licking woman's heels.
Although I did chuckle reading "get rid of the fucking scooter".

He's already in the bozo bin. The only time I see his posts is when
someone is foolish enough to reply to him.

At first I had the scooter out of necessity. Now, really like it. I don't
really like driving a car now. My next vehicle will just be a better
scooter, then I will get a motorcycle. Probably start with an old Honda
to learn how to rid and shift it. Then move on to a Harley Sportster. Not
much of a Hog or GoldWing fan though. Besides, in the future, when
everyone's SUV is sitting in the driveway collecting rust because they
can't buy gas for it and they can't sell it, I will have been a trend-
setter.

I know only owning a scooter limits my choices. But I gotta try anyway.
Women have put up with much less for a guy they really liked.

[Lisa]

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by MorrowRd
Grant, don't listen to this piece of shit. This guy goes from right
to left with what he posts. Sometimes he tries to kind of be helpful,
the next time he might share a fantasy of licking woman's heels.
Although I did chuckle reading "get rid of the fucking scooter".

He's already in the bozo bin. The only time I see his posts is when
someone is foolish enough to reply to him.
At first I had the scooter out of necessity. Now, really like it. I don't
really like driving a car now. My next vehicle will just be a better
scooter, then I will get a motorcycle. Probably start with an old Honda
to learn how to rid and shift it. Then move on to a Harley Sportster. Not
much of a Hog or GoldWing fan though. Besides, in the future, when
everyone's SUV is sitting in the driveway collecting rust because they
can't buy gas for it and they can't sell it, I will have been a trend-
setter.
I know only owning a scooter limits my choices. But I gotta try anyway.
Women have put up with much less for a guy they really liked.

I dunno what it is with the scooter. In my neighborhood some really
hawt men drive around on them - wearing helmets, even. They don't seem
to have a problem getting women so I don't think it's the scooter, it's
the attitude.

[phy]

Post by Lisa
I dunno what it is with the scooter. In my neighborhood some really
hawt men drive around on them - wearing helmets, even. They don't
seem to have a problem getting women so I don't think it's the
scooter, it's the attitude.

I think having a scooter as a sole source of transportation would almost
have to be a strike against a good first impression. We already have enough
of those. I do at least. Us shy guys need all the help we can get. It seems
to me a lady would be biased against going on a date knowing she would have
to do all the driving. THen again, if someone really likes someone, they
will overlook a lot. It is just going to make it that much more difficult
for Grant to get his foot in the door. Lisa, your example is about hot guys
who might even have alternate ways to get around. If a guy is hot enough,
he can get away with a lot more than an average joe. I know a lady who is
unhappily married because she was tired of being the elbow ornament and
thought she deserved a ken doll. She has been married since februrary and
he hasn't worked a day since their wedding. She thought I might make a good
replacement daddy for her three kids.

-phy

[Troll]

Post by phy

Post by Lisa
I dunno what it is with the scooter. In my neighborhood some really
hawt men drive around on them - wearing helmets, even. They don't
seem to have a problem getting women so I don't think it's the
scooter, it's the attitude.

I think having a scooter as a sole source of transportation would
almost have to be a strike against a good first impression. We already
have enough of those. I do at least. Us shy guys need all the help we
can get. It seems to me a lady would be biased against going on a date
knowing she would have to do all the driving. THen again, if someone
really likes someone, they will overlook a lot. It is just going to
make it that much more difficult for Grant to get his foot in the
door. Lisa, your example is about hot guys who might even have
alternate ways to get around. If a guy is hot enough, he can get away
with a lot more than an average joe. I know a lady who is unhappily
married because she was tired of being the elbow ornament and thought
she deserved a ken doll. She has been married since februrary and he
hasn't worked a day since their wedding. She thought I might make a
good replacement daddy for her three kids.
-phy

Looks like your negative feelings and misogynism don't allow you to take
care of this wonderful lady and her offspring.

[phy]

Post by Troll
Looks like your negative feelings and misogynism don't allow you to take
care of this wonderful lady and her offspring.

Actually the deal breaker was her love for drama.

-phy

[Grant Robertson]

Post by phy
I think having a scooter as a sole source of transportation would almost
have to be a strike against a good first impression. We already have enough
of those. I do at least. Us shy guys need all the help we can get. It seems
to me a lady would be biased against going on a date knowing she would have
to do all the driving. THen again, if someone really likes someone, they
will overlook a lot.

I think you are correct. But owning a car would push me just over the
limit of what I can afford and still do well at school. A car means
insurance, property tax, licensing, parking passes, and gasoline. I have
turned down cars offered free as gifts from family simply because I don't
want the extra expense. Nor do I have a cell phone, simply because I
don't want the extra monthly payment.

The "hawt" guys on scooters usually have expensive scooters along with
expensive clothes and even expensive and time consuming to maintain hair
styles. It is usually obvious that they have a nice car and the scooter
is just a toy to show off just how much extra cash they have. Some of
them even have a whole collection of scooters, both new and antique,
which require lots of time and expensive maintenance. All of this adds up
to nothing more than yet another badge of wealth.

Fortunately, I live in a community where more and more people are selling
their cars and getting scooters as a way to reduce their impact on the
world's oil consumption and global warming. So, in a way, I have started
a trend, or at least gotten in on the first wave.

One thing that I think will make a big difference is when I learn to not
be so darned honest about the real reason why I am on the scooter. On TV
and in the movies, when people have their own business and "loose
everything" they usually still have a house and a car. Usually pretty
nice ones. They just have to give up the extra house and the big boat.
This is the image that regular people seem to believe about going out of
business. When a real small-business person "looses everything" it really
means *everything*. People don't seem to be able to accept that. Yes, I
did hang in there trying to drum up more sales much longer than I should
have. Yes, things were exacerbated by a bad relationship. But the bottom
line is that people can't seem to wrap their heads around someone loosing
everything and still soldiering on without becoming homeless.

So, my new story is that I chose to give up the house and the car in
order to afford to go back to school. It is actually true. It just has a
different emphasis. When I was going out of business I had to decide
between getting a regular job, just to keep making the house and car
payments, and giving up the house and car in order to be able to go back
to school. I chose temporary poverty with the hope of a future over
permanent status just barely above poverty. Without a degree my job
prospects in the computer industry had just about run out. The fly-by-
night schools have churned out so darned many wanna-be computer
technicians that the bottom has dropped out of the pay for those
positions.

Anyway, fostering my image as someone who had to make a big sacrifice in
order to go back to school and finally achieve my goals seems to come off
slightly better than revealing myself as someone who lost everything and
went back to school, in part, as a way to keep a roof over my head.

On the other hand, I am also considering the notion of simply not
revealing this fact at all. This is a small town so my opportunities do
not come often. When I do get an opportunity, and on those rare occasions
where my approach does seem to work, I don't need to give them any
reasons to dismiss me before they get to know me. It is perfectly
acceptable to simply meet downtown for dates and never talk about where I
live or what I drive. Then, if they really want to know, I can tell them
the sacrifice for school story and leave out the going out of business
and loosing everything story.

[Lisa]

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by phy
I think having a scooter as a sole source of transportation would almost
have to be a strike against a good first impression. We already have enough
of those. I do at least. Us shy guys need all the help we can get. It seems
to me a lady would be biased against going on a date knowing she would have
to do all the driving. THen again, if someone really likes someone, they
will overlook a lot.

I think you are correct. But owning a car would push me just over the
limit of what I can afford... [...] Then, if they really want to know, I can tell them
the sacrifice for school story and leave out the going out of business
and loosing everything story.

Grant with all respect, if you can't afford a car right now and have
lost your home, you can't afford a woman. It sounds like putting more
unnecessary strain on your already overloaded shoulders. Get your needs
met when you have to and don't worry about explanations. Or by some
miracle of God if you meet a woman who isn't interested in how much
money you can earn for her* or has her own, go for it. Until then you
don't owe anyone any explanations about why you ride a scooter. F*ck 'em.

*ie - the stories these guys tell about the only women available
nowadays being gold diggers, which I hope are exaggerations

[Grant Robertson]

Post by Lisa
Grant with all respect, if you can't afford a car right now and have
lost your home, you can't afford a woman.

Well, as I have said, I am not so much looking to find a woman RIGHT NOW
as I am just plain tired of not knowing how to attract and meet one at
all. If I never learn the necessary skills - even if they are just the
skills of not messing things up - then I won't be ready when I am able to
"afford" a woman.

I can "afford" a woman if what that means is paying for a few dates a
month and spending time with her just relaxing. I see lots of people in
this college town doing just that most of the time. They sit at the
coffee shop and read or even play board games. They hang out on that
patio I mentioned. That is not much more expensive than the money I
currently spend on recreation and relaxation. And no, I would not give up
the moderate amount of recreation I enjoy in exchange for owning a car
with nowhere to drive it.

If being able to "afford" a woman means being able to support her and let
her slack off while I work all day to pay for the house she complains
about being cooped up in, but doesn't have her own career which gets her
out of, and so then I also have to pay to take her out almost every night
so she won't be so bored because she doesn't do anything interesting on
her own, then I want no part of that anyway.

As for not owning a car being an absolute black mark on my date-ability,
I don't think that is true either. While it will put a damper on things,
I don't think it is the end of the world. This is a town where lots of
people wish they could give up their cars, and only keep them to get to
work. Since I essentially live at work (it is across the street, on
campus) I don't really need the car except for those women who can't
fathom not owning an SUV (whom I don't want). One of our state senators
lives not far from me. She rides her bicycle everywhere. As far as I know
she only uses her car to get into the capital. There are lots of people
who ride their bicycle into down-town. That patio I refer to is usually
surrounded by bicycles. Yes, these people have cars, but they hate to
drive them.

Finally, I have not had a girlfriend (at least a sane, normal one) in so
long and I am getting so far "up there" in age that the prospect of
waiting another few years, without even trying, is not something I
relish, to say the least. I have to try, at least some. As Clint Eastwood
said in one of his spaghetti westerns, "A man has got to know his
limitations." I know my limitations. But knowing one's limitations is
just the first step in knowing what you got to work with and then doing
the best you can with that.


Finally, I lost my *house*. My home is where my books are. My books are
here with me in my apartment on campus.

[Lisa]

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Lisa
Grant with all respect, if you can't afford a car right now and have
lost your home, you can't afford a woman.

Well, as I have said, I am not so much looking to find a woman RIGHT NOW
as I am just plain tired of not knowing how to attract and meet one at
all.

I didn't read that part. I just jumped in where I came in.

BUT, if you're not looking to find a woman RIGHT NOW why give yourself
grief over not knowing how to find one? If in fact that's what you're
doing, which I assume is so because why else would you be here?

Post by Grant Robertson
If I never learn the necessary skills - even if they are just the
skills of not messing things up - then I won't be ready when I am able to
"afford" a woman.

Question answered. You're looking to hone your skills. So have you
gotten any good advice? Gleaned what you want from the chaff and
decided what works for you personally? Put it into practice yet? Did
it work?

Post by Grant Robertson
I can "afford" a woman if what that means is paying for a few dates a
month and spending time with her just relaxing. I see lots of people in
this college town doing just that most of the time. They sit at the
coffee shop and read or even play board games. They hang out on that
patio I mentioned. That is not much more expensive than the money I
currently spend on recreation and relaxation. And no, I would not give up
the moderate amount of recreation I enjoy in exchange for owning a car
with nowhere to drive it.

No, that's not what I meant. I was thinking a bit further than that.
Say you met a woman, hit it off, she liked you, you did the sex and
relationship thing, all went well, she loved your scooter, and then...
she got pregnant.

Post by Grant Robertson
If being able to "afford" a woman means being able to support her and let
her slack off while I work all day to pay for the house she complains
about being cooped up in, but doesn't have her own career which gets her
out of, and so then I also have to pay to take her out almost every night
so she won't be so bored because she doesn't do anything interesting on
her own, then I want no part of that anyway.

You've got the 'bad choice woman' part of the equation all mapped out,
huh.

What if she was a good woman and you loved her but she didn't want to
work outside the home? What if she wanted to have 2.5 children and have
your dinner, slippers and newspaper ready for you when you came home at
night after a long day at work. What if she loved her home and taking
care of it and you and didn't consider that boring. What if she had
simple tastes and was easy to please? What if she let you make the
final decisions concerning the family as long as you considered her
wants and needs, since you're the head of the household? Would you
consider a woman like that a slacker?

Post by Grant Robertson
As for not owning a car being an absolute black mark on my date-ability,
I don't think that is true either.

Me either. Plenty people in cities date on foot.

Post by Grant Robertson
While it will put a damper on things,
I don't think it is the end of the world. This is a town where lots of
people wish they could give up their cars, and only keep them to get to
work. Since I essentially live at work (it is across the street, on
campus) I don't really need the car except for those women who can't
fathom not owning an SUV (whom I don't want). One of our state senators
lives not far from me. She rides her bicycle everywhere. As far as I know
she only uses her car to get into the capital. There are lots of people
who ride their bicycle into down-town. That patio I refer to is usually
surrounded by bicycles. Yes, these people have cars, but they hate to
drive them.

No need to make excuses for your choices. I think they're sound.

Post by Grant Robertson
Finally, I have not had a girlfriend (at least a sane, normal one) in so
long and I am getting so far "up there" in age that the prospect of
waiting another few years, without even trying, is not something I
relish, to say the least.

How old are you?

Post by Grant Robertson
I have to try, at least some. As Clint Eastwood
said in one of his spaghetti westerns, "A man has got to know his
limitations." I know my limitations. But knowing one's limitations is
just the first step in knowing what you got to work with and then doing
the best you can with that.

Amen.

Post by Grant Robertson
Finally, I lost my *house*. My home is where my books are. My books are
here with me in my apartment on campus.

If you put your heart and hard work into buying it and living there you
lost your *home*. But it isn't fatal. It happens. You can make
another one as you've proven. The lyrics to one of my favorite songs
goes "whether you fall means nothing at all, it's whether you get up".

[Grant Robertson]

Post by Lisa

Post by Grant Robertson
If I never learn the necessary skills - even if they are just the
skills of not messing things up - then I won't be ready when I am able to
"afford" a woman.

Question answered. You're looking to hone your skills. So have you
gotten any good advice? Gleaned what you want from the chaff and
decided what works for you personally? Put it into practice yet? Did
it work?

I've gotten some good advice from my big post about hitting a brick wall.
I sent a modified version of it to several of my closest friends and then
had a few rounds of discussion with each of them.

I have learned:

1) Attractive women who are open about their sexuality should not be
prejudged any more than someone should be prejudged because of the color
of their skin. To assume they are all flighty, gold-diggers is bigoted. I
knew that, but needed to be reminded.

2) I can safely pretend that the women who go to meat-markets are not my
type (knowing it is an incorrect assumption) and therefore relieve the
pressure to succeed or impress anyone. Then I can use that environment as
a practice ground and take what I learn back to places where I feel more
comfortable. In a way the meat market can be to me what the Mediterranean
was to Demosthenes. Even the roar of the crowd noise is analogous to the
roar of the sea breaking against the Athenian coast.

2a) I may need to adjust things learned in one environment for use in
another.

3) I should take the confidence I have in my other abilities and simply
transfer that to my public interactions. I can merely remember how it
feels to climb a challenging hill on a bicycle, or run on a stone beach
(we are talking about 10-20 inch boulders, piled thick for miles on end),
or any of the many other things that I have felt mastery over, and then
reproduce that feeling and attitude into my interactions with other
people.

4) I can forget about being "Cocky and Funny" and just be the part of
myself that comes out when I am having a good time. If I don't know where
to start, I can simply recall the feelings and attitude from the last
time I was having a good time.

5) I've been told that I dress just fine and that I don't look that
darned skinny any more. There are plenty of younger guys on "the patio"
who challenge me when I claim to be skinny. They remind me that they
weigh much less than I now do.

6) I need to get online. But I still need to get a decent picture of
myself.

... Much more to come as I think of it.


I have had a few successes. I have initiated several conversations with
quite attractive women, and some not so attractive. I have become much
friendlier with - and familiar to - many of the men on "the patio." This
means I can spend more time engaged in interesting conversations rather
than sitting around. This makes me look more attractive and social to
single women I hope to meet. I probably could have asked for phone
numbers but don't yet feel comfortable doing that. Of course, it is like
all the advice I have given. I just have to do it a few times and it will
then *be* comfortable.

Post by Lisa
I was thinking a bit further than that.
Say you met a woman, hit it off, she liked you, you did the sex and
relationship thing, all went well, she loved your scooter, and then...
she got pregnant.

Well that is not going to happen thanks to a rather intense session with
a urologist who didn't think I was old enough to get a vasectomy but was
forced to give me one because I was 21 and passed all psychological
examinations. Yes, the HMO forced me to undergo a psych eval to make sure
I was mature enough to make that decision. I am assuming that, since he
was forced to do the operation, he was intent on making sure it would
stick. Let's just say that that story is not for the squeamish. But there
has been nary a single swimmer in over 26 years.

Besides, most of the women I am interested have either had their kids or
never plan to. If a woman insists on raising a new family then I know
that is not the woman for me. Yes, it limits my choices, but not by much.
I knew I would not want to have children most of my life. I am a strong
believer in adoption. There are enough children already in "this cruel
world." I don't need to be bring any more into it.

I do have one son, who has two sons of his own. Yes, I am a grandfather
at 47. That is enough for me.

Post by Lisa
You've got the 'bad choice woman' part of the equation all mapped out,
huh.

Not ALL mapped out. But with every bad experience I learn more and more
about what I know I don't want.

Post by Lisa
What if she was a good woman and you loved her but she didn't want to
work outside the home? What if she wanted to have 2.5 children and have
your dinner, slippers and newspaper ready for you when you came home at
night after a long day at work. What if she loved her home and taking
care of it and you and didn't consider that boring. What if she had
simple tastes and was easy to please? What if she let you make the
final decisions concerning the family as long as you considered her
wants and needs, since you're the head of the household? Would you
consider a woman like that a slacker?

In a way, yes. It is not that difficult to keep a house clean if you
simply don't mess it up. Since I pre-assumed that I would not be having
kids but most people assume the opposite, I can see why you would think I
was denigrating the role of a mother. But, since my future partner will
likely not have children to take care of on a daily basis, as they will
be mostly grown by the time I meet her, then just staying home and
cooking my dinner would be pretty darned easy work. Especially since I
already cook my own dinner and clean up after myself.

I would not be attracted to a woman who would let me "make the final
decisions concerning the family." The whole notion of that kind of creeps
me out. I need a woman who will stand up to me and tell me when I am full
of shit. I need a woman who will work with me to build consensus between
us on issues rather than acquiesce to my "judgement." And I need a woman
who, when I express my opinion, doesn't assume I am putting my foot down
and get defensive or feel as if I am "controlling her." I need someone
who has the self confidence to say, "Well, why do you feel that way?" ...
"Oh, I see. Well I think we should do this other thing and here's why and
it's pretty important to me."

Post by Lisa
How old are you?

As I have stated before, I just turned 47. I used to think I was the only
one around here who is my age. But just the other day out on "the patio"
a bunch of us were sitting around when we realized that all of us were
between 47 and 50. I was the youngest, the baby of the group. I also look
the youngest, by far. They all guessed I was 30-35.

Post by Lisa
If you put your heart and hard work into buying it and living there you
lost your *home*.

Well, I hadn't put much emotional energy into it. It was simply more room
and cheaper than rent. I was planning to sell it in just a few years
anyway. Plus, it now has bad vibes from the bad relationship.

[COLONEL NGBENDU-HATSBY MBONGO (FROM THE CONGO)]

As Clint Eastwood said in one of his spaghetti westerns, "A man
has got to know his limitations."

It was from Magnum Force! *slap*

[u***@hotmail.com]

Post by Lisa
Grant with all respect, if you can't afford a car right now and have
lost your home, you can't afford a woman. It sounds like putting more
unnecessary strain on your already overloaded shoulders. Get your needs
met when you have to and don't worry about explanations. Or by some
miracle of God if you meet a woman who isn't interested in how much
money you can earn for her* or has her own, go for it. Until then you
don't owe anyone any explanations about why you ride a scooter. F*ck 'em.
*ie - the stories these guys tell about the only women available
nowadays being gold diggers, which I hope are exaggerations

Women don't need to be kept! They can earn their own way. If they
want to be kept as in financially looked after by men then they
deserve some of the shit they get.

[u***@hotmail.com]

New story sounds good. You could always say business wasn't going
well, so you decided to sell the house and car and go back to school
to stay on top of the technology game.

[Lisa]

Post by u***@hotmail.com
New story sounds good. You could always say business wasn't going
well, so you decided to sell the house and car and go back to school
to stay on top of the technology game.

I have my doubts anyone would believe it necessary to sell your house
and car to go back to school. Too many people do so without having to
give up their assets.

[Grant Robertson]

Post by Lisa
I have my doubts anyone would believe it necessary to sell your house
and car to go back to school. Too many people do so without having to
give up their assets.

But it was necessary for me. In order for me to go to school full time I
had to not be working all the hours it would have taken to pay for the
house and car and all the other stuff that goes with them. If I was
making enough money to support the house and car then I would be making
too much money to qualify for financial aid and I would have to pay for
all of school out of pocket. With the kind of employment I could get
around here - without a degree - that would just not have been possible.

So, I had to take the plunge. It truly was a choice of one or the other.

I know that many people do go to school full time and work full time. I
know I do not have the mental energy for that. I also know that most of
those people are not getting almost all 'A's. As I have quoted before, "A
man has got to know his limitations." If I want the good grades, I have
to have the time to study and the time to relax without working.

[Lisa]

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Lisa
I have my doubts anyone would believe it necessary to sell your house
and car to go back to school. Too many people do so without having to
give up their assets.

But it was necessary for me. In order for me to go to school full time I
had to not be working all the hours it would have taken to pay for the
house and car and all the other stuff that goes with them. If I was
making enough money to support the house and car then I would be making
too much money to qualify for financial aid and I would have to pay for
all of school out of pocket. With the kind of employment I could get
around here - without a degree - that would just not have been possible.
So, I had to take the plunge. It truly was a choice of one or the other.
I know that many people do go to school full time and work full time. I
know I do not have the mental energy for that. I also know that most of
those people are not getting almost all 'A's. As I have quoted before, "A
man has got to know his limitations." If I want the good grades, I have
to have the time to study and the time to relax without working.

I know, I did the same. I worked full time, had two kids and a husband
who didn't work, plus went to school full time and took care of my
household duties. I was able to maintain a 4.0 GPA for exactly one year
(three consecutive quarters) until it exhausted me and something had to go.

Of course I may have been able to continue if I had had a supportive
spouse. As it was my then-husband was mentally ill and very frightened
of the change my earning a degree would mean in his life. He didn't
want to be left behind and felt safer remaining dependent so he began to
attempt suicide and threw himself out of a moving car. But this is
another story.

[phy]

Post by u***@hotmail.com
New story sounds good. You could always say business wasn't going
well, so you decided to sell the house and car and go back to school
to stay on top of the technology game.

I thought that was basically the 'true' story. Grant is looking for a story
with a better spin on it.

-phy

[Grant Robertson]

Post by phy
I thought that was basically the 'true' story. Grant is looking for a story
with a better spin on it.

Well, the true story is that I lost them both to repossession.

[William P]

Post by Grant Robertson
I think you are correct. But owning a car would push me just over the
limit of what I can afford and still do well at school. A car means
insurance, property tax, licensing, parking passes, and gasoline. I
have turned down cars offered free as gifts from family simply because
I don't want the extra expense. Nor do I have a cell phone, simply
because I don't want the extra monthly payment.
The "hawt" guys on scooters usually have expensive scooters along with
expensive clothes and even expensive and time consuming to maintain
hair styles. It is usually obvious that they have a nice car and the
scooter is just a toy to show off just how much extra cash they have.
Some of them even have a whole collection of scooters, both new and
antique, which require lots of time and expensive maintenance. All of
this adds up to nothing more than yet another badge of wealth.

Wealth, but more importantly passion and in the hair and clothing case,
an indication that they're willing to spend effort to make themselves
attractive.

Post by Grant Robertson
Fortunately, I live in a community where more and more people are
selling their cars and getting scooters as a way to reduce their
impact on the world's oil consumption and global warming. So, in a
way, I have started a trend, or at least gotten in on the first wave.

It sounds like a better way to sell it than saying you have no choice
because you're broke.

Post by Grant Robertson
On the other hand, I am also considering the notion of simply not
revealing this fact at all. This is a small town so my opportunities
do not come often. When I do get an opportunity, and on those rare
occasions where my approach does seem to work, I don't need to give
them any reasons to dismiss me before they get to know me. It is
perfectly acceptable to simply meet downtown for dates and never talk
about where I live or what I drive. Then, if they really want to know,
I can tell them the sacrifice for school story and leave out the going
out of business and loosing everything story.

Sounds good to me. I'm not into hiding things but you never want to
volunteer to present yourself in the worst possible light.

[Lisa]

Post by phy

Post by Lisa
I dunno what it is with the scooter. In my neighborhood some really
hawt men drive around on them - wearing helmets, even. They don't
seem to have a problem getting women so I don't think it's the
scooter, it's the attitude.

I think having a scooter as a sole source of transportation would almost
have to be a strike against a good first impression. We already have enough
of those. I do at least. Us shy guys need all the help we can get. It seems
to me a lady would be biased against going on a date knowing she would have
to do all the driving. THen again, if someone really likes someone, they
will overlook a lot. It is just going to make it that much more difficult
for Grant to get his foot in the door.

Aha. I thought Grant had alternate sources of transportation and rode a
scooter by choice. Gotcha. Personally I think they're much better for
the environment than an auto, as has already been said. Not as good as
a bike but more practical for going longer distances with packages.

Yeah it would be a little hard to date on a scooter if you're the type
of person who likes the guy to put forth all the effort. Which I'm not.
I've dated people with cars and those without. It evens out.

Post by phy
Lisa, your example is about hot guys
who might even have alternate ways to get around.

True.

Post by phy
If a guy is hot enough,
he can get away with a lot more than an average joe.

Hm. True. Initially. I think geeks are coming into their own, though.
Geeks are hawt. In fact, the whole definition of hawt is changing,
slowly but surely.

Post by phy
I know a lady who is
unhappily married because she was tired of being the elbow ornament and
thought she deserved a ken doll. She has been married since februrary and
he hasn't worked a day since their wedding. She thought I might make a good
replacement daddy for her three kids.

Wait a minute, this woman is married since Feb. and hitting on you
because he won't earn any money? Run. Fast.

[COLONEL NGBENDU-HATSBY MBONGO (FROM THE CONGO)]

Post by Lisa

Post by phy

Post by Lisa
I dunno what it is with the scooter. In my neighborhood some really
hawt men drive around on them - wearing helmets, even. They don't
seem to have a problem getting women so I don't think it's the
scooter, it's the attitude.

I think having a scooter as a sole source of transportation would almost
have to be a strike against a good first impression. We already have
enough of those. I do at least. Us shy guys need all the help we can get.
It seems to me a lady would be biased against going on a date knowing she
would have to do all the driving. THen again, if someone really likes
someone, they will overlook a lot. It is just going to make it that much
more difficult for Grant to get his foot in the door.

Aha. I thought Grant had alternate sources of transportation and rode a
scooter by choice. Gotcha. Personally I think they're much better for
the environment than an auto, as has already been said. Not as good as a
bike but more practical for going longer distances with packages.

Especially if it's my package.

[dan74]

Post by Lisa
I dunno what it is with the scooter. In my neighborhood some really
*hawt men* drive around on them - wearing helmets, even. They don't seem
to have a problem getting women so I don't think it's the scooter, it's
the attitude

Notice how I highlited the phrase *hawt men* in your post.

In general, "hawt people" can get away with all kinds of things
and still be very attractive.

I would be believe in your "it's all attitude" theory more
if you left out the 'hawt' bit.

Your scientific observations will be biased if you find the
scooter rider hawt.

[Lisa]

Post by dan74

Post by Lisa
I dunno what it is with the scooter. In my neighborhood some really
*hawt men* drive around on them - wearing helmets, even. They don't seem
to have a problem getting women so I don't think it's the scooter, it's
the attitude

Notice how I highlited the phrase *hawt men* in your post.
In general, "hawt people" can get away with all kinds of things
and still be very attractive.
I would be believe in your "it's all attitude" theory more
if you left out the 'hawt' bit.
Your scientific observations will be biased if you find the
scooter rider hawt.

I find people who believe in themselves hawt, with few exceptions*.
Self-confidence is very sexy, hence my use of the phrase "it's the
attitude".

*an exception would be someone who is confident in their right not to
bathe on a regular basis, etc.

[u***@hotmail.com]

Post by Lisa

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by MorrowRd
Grant, don't listen to this piece of shit. This guy goes from right
to left with what he posts. Sometimes he tries to kind of be helpful,
the next time he might share a fantasy of licking woman's heels.
Although I did chuckle reading "get rid of the fucking scooter".

He's already in the bozo bin. The only time I see his posts is when
someone is foolish enough to reply to him.
At first I had the scooter out of necessity. Now, really like it. I don't
really like driving a car now. My next vehicle will just be a better
scooter, then I will get a motorcycle. Probably start with an old Honda
to learn how to rid and shift it. Then move on to a Harley Sportster. Not
much of a Hog or GoldWing fan though. Besides, in the future, when
everyone's SUV is sitting in the driveway collecting rust because they
can't buy gas for it and they can't sell it, I will have been a trend-
setter.
I know only owning a scooter limits my choices. But I gotta try anyway.
Women have put up with much less for a guy they really liked.

I dunno what it is with the scooter. In my neighborhood some really
hawt men drive around on them - wearing helmets, even. They don't seem
to have a problem getting women so I don't think it's the scooter, it's
the attitude.

In Italy lots of guys ride scooters. Seems urban and chic.

[Lisa]

Post by u***@hotmail.com

Post by Lisa

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by MorrowRd
Grant, don't listen to this piece of shit. This guy goes from right
to left with what he posts. Sometimes he tries to kind of be helpful,
the next time he might share a fantasy of licking woman's heels.
Although I did chuckle reading "get rid of the fucking scooter".

He's already in the bozo bin. The only time I see his posts is when
someone is foolish enough to reply to him.
At first I had the scooter out of necessity. Now, really like it. I don't
really like driving a car now. My next vehicle will just be a better
scooter, then I will get a motorcycle. Probably start with an old Honda
to learn how to rid and shift it. Then move on to a Harley Sportster. Not
much of a Hog or GoldWing fan though. Besides, in the future, when
everyone's SUV is sitting in the driveway collecting rust because they
can't buy gas for it and they can't sell it, I will have been a trend-
setter.
I know only owning a scooter limits my choices. But I gotta try anyway.
Women have put up with much less for a guy they really liked.

I dunno what it is with the scooter. In my neighborhood some really
hawt men drive around on them - wearing helmets, even. They don't seem
to have a problem getting women so I don't think it's the scooter, it's
the attitude.

In Italy lots of guys ride scooters. Seems urban and chic.

Here, too. The scooters are like a status symbol.

[Mickey]

Post by Lisa

Post by u***@hotmail.com
In Italy lots of guys ride scooters. Seems urban and chic.

Here, too. The scooters are like a status symbol.

One of the seemingly dorkiest guys I knew was a math PhD student who
was, for reasons I could never fathom, a major chick magnet. He used to
be on a moped most of the time around campus and was only like 5'7 with
a slight build. But once he hit the bars, he usually had a girl to
himself within an hour.

-M

[Lisa]

Post by Mickey

Post by Lisa

Post by u***@hotmail.com
In Italy lots of guys ride scooters. Seems urban and chic.

Here, too. The scooters are like a status symbol.

One of the seemingly dorkiest guys I knew was a math PhD student who
was, for reasons I could never fathom, a major chick magnet. He used to
be on a moped most of the time around campus and was only like 5'7 with
a slight build. But once he hit the bars, he usually had a girl to
himself within an hour.

My guess, hidden assets and word-of-mouth.

[COLONEL NGBENDU-HATSBY MBONGO (FROM THE CONGO)]

Post by u***@hotmail.com
In Italy lots of guys ride scooters.

But in Soviet Russia scooter rides YOU!!

[William P]

Post by COLONEL NGBENDU-HATSBY MBONGO (FROM THE CONGO)

Post by u***@hotmail.com
In Italy lots of guys ride scooters.

But in Soviet Russia scooter rides YOU!!

I'm checking to see if your package really goes such a long distance as you
describe.

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by MorrowRd
Grant, don't listen to this piece of shit. This guy goes from right
to left with what he posts. Sometimes he tries to kind of be
helpful, the next time he might share a fantasy of licking woman's
heels.
Although I did chuckle reading "get rid of the fucking scooter".

He's already in the bozo bin. The only time I see his posts is when
someone is foolish enough to reply to him.
At first I had the scooter out of necessity. Now, really like it. I
don't really like driving a car now. My next vehicle will just be a
better scooter, then I will get a motorcycle. Probably start with an
old Honda to learn how to rid and shift it. Then move on to a Harley
Sportster. Not much of a Hog or GoldWing fan though. Besides, in the
future, when everyone's SUV is sitting in the driveway collecting
rust because they can't buy gas for it and they can't sell it, I

will

Post by Grant Robertson
have been a trend- setter.
I know only owning a scooter limits my choices. But I gotta try
anyway. Women have put up with much less for a guy they really

liked.

Not sure if I'm reading this post upside down or what, but I applaud
you for your 'tude. It may limit your choices, but you feel comfy in
what you've decided to do, so somehow I think it'll work for you.

- Michaela

[JimSummers]

Not sure if I'm reading this post upside down or what, but I applaud you

for your 'tude. It may limit your choices, but you feel comfy in what
you've decided to do, so somehow I think it'll >work for you.


It is his form of "testing" women but I'm sure that you see that, this
area has always been an emphasis of yours.

[Troll]

Post by JimSummers
Dump the fucking scooter (are you trying to save the environment? Like
women give a rat's ass about that!

Actually all females seem to drive giant suv cars that look ridiculous.

[ThePuttKing]

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

I can't agree with you.

There are alot of nice, sane people on here who give good advice.

[ThePuttKing]

Post by ThePuttKing

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

I can't agree with you.
There are alot of nice, sane people on here who give good advice.

And before anybody says "who ?"

Fallout, Antares, Pumkinhead, Sklenge, Dan74, Parker, Solitary Soul
plus others.

[Grant Robertson]

Post by ThePuttKing

Post by ThePuttKing
There are alot of nice, sane people on here who give good advice.

And before anybody says "who ?"
Fallout, Antares, Pumkinhead, Sklenge, Dan74, Parker, Solitary Soul
plus others.

You are correct. I over stated. I originally had Antares on my bozo list
because he can say some pretty crude things. But I took him off because
he does make sense often enough to be worth reading. The others are OK.
Sometimes I have to take what even the "sane" guys say with a grain of
salt. But, all in all it is not too bad here.

[ThePuttKing]

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by ThePuttKing
And before anybody says "who ?"
Fallout, Antares, Pumkinhead, Sklenge, Dan74, Parker, Solitary Soul
plus others.

You are correct. I over stated. I originally had Antares on my bozo list
because he can say some pretty crude things. But I took him off because
he does make sense often enough to be worth reading. The others are OK.
Sometimes I have to take what even the "sane" guys say with a grain of
salt. But, all in all it is not too bad here.

I think it's best not to take this group that seriously.

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by ThePuttKing

Post by ThePuttKing
There are alot of nice, sane people on here who give good advice.

And before anybody says "who ?"
Fallout, Antares, Pumkinhead, Sklenge, Dan74, Parker, Solitary Soul
plus others.

You are correct. I over stated. I originally had Antares on my bozo
list because he can say some pretty crude things. But I took him off
because he does make sense often enough to be worth reading. The
others are OK. Sometimes I have to take what even the "sane" guys

say with a grain of salt. But, all in all it is not too bad here.

I certainly hope I am not counted as one of the sane ones
(what does "sane" mean anyway?). If I was sane, do you
really think I'd be sitting here banging away on a keyboard
replying to to strangers who prolly won't even read my posts?

- Michaela, insane and hanging on

[CLFan]

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

"Look at me! I'm sane and I tell other people they are insane just for
the hell of it!"

[JimSummers]

"Look at me! I'm sane and I tell other people >they are insane just for

the hell of it!"


Grant is an uppity little bitch who wanted to bring his unrealistic smug
self-help holier-than-thou crap to this group as if we hadn't already seen
that garbage a hundred times previously. I prefer the regulars who talk
about their own personal experiences and don't try to force some sweeping
Dr. Phil nonsense on the rest of us.

And also why can't shybies ever stay rational? Just because one girl
talks to you doesn't mean that the world is all flowers and rainbows! The
way shybies rush to extremes based on the smallest amount of feedback is
so absurd.

As far as realism goes I'd say that Parker is the only "reformed shybie"
who isn't annoying, I don't detect any "the world is perfect" or "women
are flawless" vibe from him. He's a guy who went out there and got girls
but doesn't try and polish a turd, he doesn't have to believe that women's
personalities are perfect to get through a day, he just lives.

[William P]

Post by JimSummers
As far as realism goes I'd say that Parker is the only "reformed shybie"
who isn't annoying, I don't detect any "the world is perfect" or
"women are flawless" vibe from him. He's a guy who went out there and
got girls but doesn't try and polish a turd, he doesn't have to
believe that women's personalities are perfect to get through a day,
he just lives.

With Summers as my character witness and Maas to back my political views I
can't do wrong.

[phy]

Post by Grant Robertson
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend.

For a minute there I thought you were talking about me!

-phy

[Grant Robertson]

Post by phy

Post by Grant Robertson
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend.

For a minute there I thought you were talking about me!
-phy

No, phy, you seem to be alright. At least you aren't mean.

[phy]

Post by Grant Robertson
No, phy, you seem to be alright. At least you aren't mean.

I save my mean for other groups where it is a requirement.

-phy

[Lisa]

Post by phy

Post by Grant Robertson
No, phy, you seem to be alright. At least you aren't mean.

I save my mean for other groups where it is a requirement.

And you should see his mean. It's fierce. I cried once.

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by phy

Post by Grant Robertson
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long
time girlfriend.

For a minute there I thought you were talking about me!
-phy

No, phy, you seem to be alright.

Phy is onehelluvawoman. And that's saying somethin'

- Michaela

[phy]

Post by
Phy is onehelluvawoman. And that's saying somethin'

Did something happen that I should know about since the last time I
checked?

-(mr)phy

[Lisa]

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

So... if I'm a sane, shy woman who happens to be married, I'm of no use
to you comaradarie-or-advice wise, eh?

[Grant Robertson]

Post by Lisa
So... if I'm a sane, shy woman who happens to be married, I'm of no use
to you comaradarie-or-advice wise, eh?

OK for advice. But, by definition, not much for camaraderie. The lives
and suffering of shy men seem to me to be very different from those of
shy women. Especially shy women who are married. Shy men are usually
looking for a relationship or at least the skills to find a relationship.
They live amongst a sea of women who expect to be approached in a certain
manner and yet they have no clue what this certain manner is. Even shy
women seem to expect men to use this same subtle approach and will fend
off men who don't have the appropriate skills.

I have solved the difficulties of many shy women friends by giving them
this simple advice: Go to a bar and wear a shirt that *doesn't* cover up
your collar bones. They don't even need to really show any cleavage but
it helps. Men will approach them and all they have to do is say, "Yes"
every once in a while. The feminist, shy women may claim this is a
fantasy, but it works every darned time. I do not have a single shy
female friend who was willing to take this advice who hasn't completely
gotten over her shyness and been able to get lots of dates,
relationships, and or marriage.

[Lisa]

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Lisa
So... if I'm a sane, shy woman who happens to be married, I'm of no use
to you comaradarie-or-advice wise, eh?

OK for advice. But, by definition, not much for camaraderie.

Since I can learn something from just about everyone I think it's
dangerous to limit my social set in this way, but to each his/her own.

Post by Grant Robertson
The lives
and suffering of shy men seem to me to be very different from those of
shy women. Especially shy women who are married.

Are you confusing "shy" with "lacking in the skills necessary to procure
companionship/love/sex"? In my book those are two different things
which can occur in combination and compound the problem, but different.

Post by Grant Robertson
Shy men are usually
looking for a relationship or at least the skills to find a relationship.

Yes, it seems you are.

Post by Grant Robertson
They live amongst a sea of women who expect to be approached in a certain
manner and yet they have no clue what this certain manner is. Even shy
women seem to expect men to use this same subtle approach and will fend
off men who don't have the appropriate skills.
I have solved the difficulties of many shy women friends by giving them
this simple advice: Go to a bar and wear a shirt that *doesn't* cover up
your collar bones. They don't even need to really show any cleavage but
it helps. Men will approach them and all they have to do is say, "Yes"
every once in a while. The feminist, shy women may claim this is a
fantasy, but it works every darned time. I do not have a single shy
female friend who was willing to take this advice who hasn't completely
gotten over her shyness and been able to get lots of dates,
relationships, and or marriage.

Those women weren't shy. Marriage/companionship/sex doesn't cure shyness.

[Grant Robertson]

Post by Lisa

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Lisa
So... if I'm a sane, shy woman who happens to be married, I'm of no use
to you comaradarie-or-advice wise, eh?

OK for advice. But, by definition, not much for camaraderie.

Since I can learn something from just about everyone I think it's
dangerous to limit my social set in this way, but to each his/her own.

Well, I think we are talking past each other. I define camaraderie as
having lots in common with the other person so that they can completely
understand what the other is going through and where they are coming
from. It is entirely possible, by my definition, to be great friends and
still not have camaraderie. Friends are people who get along, and enjoy
each other's company even if they don't understand each other. This is
why friends often say, "Dude, you never cease to amaze me!" Many friends
develop camaraderie after they have been friends for a long time simply
by having been through so many things together.

You can get advice from anyone; friends, strangers, comrades, it doesn't
matter. You always have to take it with a grain of salt and adjust it to
your needs anyway. I've even taken advice from enemies. I just end up
doing the opposite of what they advise.

Post by Lisa
Are you confusing "shy" with "lacking in the skills necessary to procure
companionship/love/sex"? In my book those are two different things
which can occur in combination and compound the problem, but different.

As soon as I posted I knew someone would raise this distinction. Yes, I
define "shy" as meaning trouble dealing with the opposite sex in the
context of relationship matters. I use the term "social anxiety" for the
general phobia that some people have of interacting with anyone at all. I
guess that is because most regular people only use the term "shy" when
referring to people who are afraid to approach the opposite sex in the
context of seeking a relationship. When someone has general social
anxiety then most regular people just call them a dork. But that is
because most regular people don't have the education or sensitivity to
use the term "social anxiety."

Post by Lisa

Post by Grant Robertson
Shy men are usually
looking for a relationship or at least the skills to find a relationship.

Yes, it seems you are.

As are most others, hence the use of the word, "usually." The only shy
men I have met who aren't looking for a relationship, of some kind, are
those who have just given up. When pressed, I think all but the most
anti-social would admit that they would like to be in some kind of a
relationship. (Note: I said "some kind" of relationship, not "any kind"
of relationship. Few want to be in a bad relationship. But most would
like to be in a good relationship.)

To implicitly disparage someone for actually wanting to be in a
relationship, when one is currently in a relationship is disingenuous.

Post by Lisa
Those women weren't shy. Marriage/companionship/sex doesn't cure shyness.

You don't know. You are selectively redefining what you think those women
were like just to make them fit your definition of shyness. It also
appears that your definition of shyness is what I would call severe
social anxiety.

These women had trouble meeting men at all. They couldn't bring
themselves to talk to men or present themselves for men to approach in
any kind of manner that would lead to a relationship. They were all
strictly platonic with their men friends and had no boyfriends. They were
all convinced that no man whom they were attracted to would ever be
attracted to them. They said they didn't know what to say or how to act.
Just like shy men.

By simply getting themselves out there these formerly shy women were able
to have enough men approach them that they realized the error of their
preconceived notions. The notions that they had to do anything special or
be anyone other than whom they were. Really and truly, just being a woman
is about all it takes for most women. Yes, very large women or the
extreme minority of women that I have seen who are really just ugly (only
about 5, in my entire life) have to try a bit harder or be out there
longer. But there are still men who will eventually approach even them. I
know one woman who is pretty darned ugly and has a bad attitude. Her
husband tells me that he actively pursued her and that is what I have to
do to get a woman myself. So, someone found attractive, and pursued, even
her. (Granted, if a woman wants to get a man who is higher up on the
social or financial ladder then she usually has to gussy herself up a
bit. But if no women did this then even rich men would settle for plain
women over no women at all. And from the looks of the wives of some of
the rich men I have seen, it is certainly not only looks and body that
must attract these rich men.)


In contrast, shy men have to do a lot more than simply go out and show a
bit more of their neckline than their adams apple. They have to learn
what signals a woman gives off when she is ready to be approached. Even
if the woman doesn't know she is sending the signals or what they are. If
a man misreads those signals then the woman either thinks the man is a
cad or a loser. Only those men who can walk the fine tightrope of signal
reading and appropriate actions at appropriate times can get past the
built in selectiveness of most women. If all men dressed the same and
drove the same car it would still be the men who could read the signals
who would win the day, even over the good looking men.

Now, if a man is exceptionally good looking then he doesn't have to do
much of anything. I have seen women throw themselves at one friend I had
who was exceptionally good looking. Multiple women per day approached
him. Oddly, he was too shy to do anything about it. I told him the same
thing I told the shy women. Just say yes every once in a while. His
shyness quickly went away. Now this only works for the very few
exceptionally good looking men. There are just enough women who are
forward enough - especially in California, in the 1980s - that they will
overcome their normal inhibitions and approach a man. The rest of us men
have to do all the work. That is all there is to it.

Until all women in general start being much more forgiving about first
impressions, then this is just the way the world works and we all just
have to get used to it.

[u***@hotmail.com]

Post by Grant Robertson
As soon as I posted I knew someone would raise this distinction. Yes, I
define "shy" as meaning trouble dealing with the opposite sex in the
context of relationship matters. I use the term "social anxiety" for the
general phobia that some people have of interacting with anyone at all. I
guess that is because most regular people only use the term "shy" when
referring to people who are afraid to approach the opposite sex in the
context of seeking a relationship. When someone has general social
anxiety then most regular people just call them a dork. But that is
because most regular people don't have the education or sensitivity to
use the term "social anxiety."

Ok, I have social phobia,... and possibly shyness as well. People do
not call me a dork! Do they...?

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Lisa

Post by Grant Robertson
Shy men are usually
looking for a relationship or at least the skills to find a relationship.

Yes, it seems you are.

As are most others, hence the use of the word, "usually." The only shy
men I have met who aren't looking for a relationship, of some kind, are
those who have just given up. When pressed, I think all but the most
anti-social would admit that they would like to be in some kind of a
relationship. (Note: I said "some kind" of relationship, not "any kind"
of relationship. Few want to be in a bad relationship. But most would
like to be in a good relationship.)

Post by Lisa
Those women weren't shy. Marriage/companionship/sex doesn't cure shyness.

You don't know. You are selectively redefining what you think those women
were like just to make them fit your definition of shyness. It also
appears that your definition of shyness is what I would call severe
social anxiety.
These women had trouble meeting men at all. They couldn't bring
themselves to talk to men or present themselves for men to approach in
any kind of manner that would lead to a relationship. They were all
strictly platonic with their men friends and had no boyfriends. They were
all convinced that no man whom they were attracted to would ever be
attracted to them. They said they didn't know what to say or how to act.
Just like shy men.
By simply getting themselves out there these formerly shy women were able
to have enough men approach them that they realized the error of their
preconceived notions. The notions that they had to do anything special or
be anyone other than whom they were. Really and truly, just being a woman

Well yes, you don't have to dress up at all, even look scruffy sitting
at a bar...

Post by Grant Robertson
is about all it takes for most women. Yes, very large women or the
extreme minority of women that I have seen who are really just ugly (only
about 5, in my entire life) have to try a bit harder or be out there

Funnily enough I have met large and not particularly attractive women
who are men magnets.

Post by Grant Robertson
longer. But there are still men who will eventually approach even them. I
know one woman who is pretty darned ugly and has a bad attitude. Her
husband tells me that he actively pursued her and that is what I have to
do to get a woman myself. So, someone found attractive, and pursued, even
her. (Granted, if a woman wants to get a man who is higher up on the
social or financial ladder then she usually has to gussy herself up a
bit. But if no women did this then even rich men would settle for plain
women over no women at all. And from the looks of the wives of some of
the rich men I have seen, it is certainly not only looks and body that
must attract these rich men.)
In contrast, shy men have to do a lot more than simply go out and show a
bit more of their neckline than their adams apple. They have to learn
what signals a woman gives off when she is ready to be approached. Even
if the woman doesn't know she is sending the signals or what they are. If
a man misreads those signals then the woman either thinks the man is a
cad or a loser. Only those men who can walk the fine tightrope of signal
reading and appropriate actions at appropriate times can get past the
built in selectiveness of most women. If all men dressed the same and
drove the same car it would still be the men who could read the signals
who would win the day, even over the good looking men.

You know getting into relationships isn't just about giving the come
hither look. If you attracted one, you'd actually have to do that
relationship bit as well. It isn't always the attract bit that is the
problem, it is the relationship bit that can be...

Post by Grant Robertson
Now, if a man is exceptionally good looking then he doesn't have to do
much of anything. I have seen women throw themselves at one friend I had
who was exceptionally good looking. Multiple women per day approached
him. Oddly, he was too shy to do anything about it. I told him the same
thing I told the shy women. Just say yes every once in a while. His
shyness quickly went away. Now this only works for the very few
exceptionally good looking men. There are just enough women who are
forward enough - especially in California, in the 1980s - that they will
overcome their normal inhibitions and approach a man. The rest of us men
have to do all the work. That is all there is to it.

Flexing muscles draw interest. Showing off the best part of your
anatomy to best advantage (which is where dancing can be a good skill
to have) can draw interest. There aren't that few women who will
approach a man when they are interested. Or at least many of the
women I have met would approach a man on occasion.

Post by Grant Robertson
Until all women in general start being much more forgiving about first
impressions, then this is just the way the world works and we all just
have to get used to it.

Maybe a fair few do but are never given a cautious second impression.

[Lisa]

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Lisa

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Lisa
So... if I'm a sane, shy woman who happens to be married, I'm of no use
to you comaradarie-or-advice wise, eh?

OK for advice. But, by definition, not much for camaraderie.

Since I can learn something from just about everyone I think it's
dangerous to limit my social set in this way, but to each his/her own.

Well, I think we are talking past each other. I define camaraderie as
having lots in common with the other person so that they can completely
understand what the other is going through and where they are coming
from.

Wow. Do you know many people like that? I only know a couple. One is
my mother, the other is my sister and the third I married.

Post by Grant Robertson
It is entirely possible, by my definition, to be great friends and
still not have camaraderie. Friends are people who get along, and enjoy
each other's company even if they don't understand each other. This is
why friends often say, "Dude, you never cease to amaze me!" Many friends
develop camaraderie after they have been friends for a long time simply
by having been through so many things together.

Interesting.

Post by Grant Robertson
You can get advice from anyone; friends, strangers, comrades, it doesn't
matter. You always have to take it with a grain of salt and adjust it to
your needs anyway. I've even taken advice from enemies. I just end up
doing the opposite of what they advise.

Post by Lisa
Are you confusing "shy" with "lacking in the skills necessary to procure
companionship/love/sex"? In my book those are two different things
which can occur in combination and compound the problem, but different.

As soon as I posted I knew someone would raise this distinction. Yes, I
define "shy" as meaning trouble dealing with the opposite sex in the
context of relationship matters.

You may define it that way but that doesn't fit its real definition.

shy =
1.) bashful; retiring
2.) easily frightened away; timid
3.) suspicious; distrustful
4.) reluctant; wary
5.) deficient
6..) scant; short of a full amount or number
7.) (in poker) indebted to the pot
8.) not bearing or breeding freely, as plants or animals
9.) (esp. of a horse) to start back or aside, as in fear
10.) to draw back; recoil
11.) a sudden start aside, as in fear
12.) fight shy of, to keep away from; avoid

synonyms: 1. Shy, bashful, diffident imply a manner that shows
discomfort or lack of confidence in association with others. Shy implies
a constitutional shrinking from contact or close association with
others, together with a wish to escape notice: shy and retiring. Bashful
suggests timidity about meeting others, and trepidation and awkward
behavior when brought into prominence or notice: a bashful child.
Diffident emphasizes self-distrust, fear of censure, failure, etc., and
a hesitant, tentative manner as a consequence: a diffident approach to a
touchy subject. 4. heedful, cautious, chary. 10. shrink.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass but I've been reading this newsgroup
off and on for years and I get the impression the men here have been
defining "shy" the same way you have. This confuses me because I've
been in relationships and if shyness really is what you propose it to be
I should be cured because I pretty well know my way backwards and
forwards around the opposite sex.

Yet I still feel 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, and 12 on a regular basis.
Ditto the synonym definition.

My point is the men here - some of them - say a woman can't be shy
because she has it easier in the companionship/sex department - which is
only partially true. Yes, we have it easier in relationships. Yes, if
we're good-looking we can pretty well lay back and wait for it to come
to us, initially. (keeping a man is another matter) But we can be and
some of us are definitely shy.

Still, your definition is your own and no one can stop you from using it
like you want but that doesn't make it correct and applicable in the
general sense. Only in the world according to a.s.s. and Grant. Know
what I mean?

Then I thought well, maybe Grant means "love shy", but that isn't it
either. "Love shy" would imply someone who's been in a relationship
with another and been hurt till they're hesitant to go through it again.
Not someone who is completely inexperienced.

I think there should be another way to describe what you're talking
about. Imo "shyness" in that context is misleading and exclusive.

Post by Grant Robertson
I use the term "social anxiety" for the
general phobia that some people have of interacting with anyone at all.

Yes, that sounds right.

Here's what I found:
(http://www.reference.com/search?q=social%20anxiety)

"Social anxiety is an experience of fear, apprehension or worry
regarding social situations and being evaluated by others. People vary
in how often they experience anxiety in this way or in which kinds of
situations. Anxiety about public speaking, performance, or interviews is
common. Social anxiety can be related to shyness. The experience is
commonly described as having physiological components (e.g. sweating,
blushing), cognitive/perceptual components (e.g. belief that one may be
judged negatively; looking for signs of disapproval) and behavioral
components (e.g. avoiding a situation). It can also be associated with
Asperger's Syndrome, a social disorder causes difficulty with social
interaction with other people, resulting in awkward moments."

Post by Grant Robertson
I
guess that is because most regular people only use the term "shy" when
referring to people who are afraid to approach the opposite sex in the
context of seeking a relationship.

They're applying it to approaching the opposite sex and ignoring the
fact it affects all areas of a person's life.

Post by Grant Robertson
When someone has general social
anxiety then most regular people just call them a dork. But that is
because most regular people don't have the education or sensitivity to
use the term "social anxiety."

From what I read it seems it's a condition that is just now beginning
to be recognized as a problem, and a wider spread one than previously
thought.

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Lisa

Post by Grant Robertson
Shy men are usually
looking for a relationship or at least the skills to find a relationship.

Yes, it seems you are.

As are most others, hence the use of the word, "usually." The only shy
men I have met who aren't looking for a relationship, of some kind, are
those who have just given up. When pressed, I think all but the most
anti-social would admit that they would like to be in some kind of a
relationship. (Note: I said "some kind" of relationship, not "any kind"
of relationship. Few want to be in a bad relationship. But most would
like to be in a good relationship.)
To implicitly disparage someone for actually wanting to be in a
relationship, when one is currently in a relationship is disingenuous.

I wasn't belittling you. I was cringing at the thought of what could
happen that you wouldn't be prepared for, both financially and
otherwise. Of course I'm not you but if I could do it over again I
would wait until I was in my late 20's or even 30's to even consider
dating or having children.

Now I'm taking into account you may be older than I think you are and
have been through more than what your view suggests. I'll wait and see
from here out.

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Lisa
Those women weren't shy. Marriage/companionship/sex doesn't cure shyness.

You don't know.

I do too, I live it. Other people live it and I learn vicariously from
them my reactions are similar to theirs. Shyness, the shyness I defined
above, doesn't have a cure. It's an involuntary reaction wired into a
person and who knows why. Maybe it's genetic. I have always reacted
the way I do now, ever since I was a child. I can desensitize myself,
draw my thoughts away, close my eyes and do a thing regardless of how I
feel about it, but I will never 'fix' my involuntary reactions. Not
even by flashing my boobs. Hard to believe, I know, but there it is.

Post by Grant Robertson
You are selectively redefining what you think those women
were like just to make them fit your definition of shyness.

No, I think real shyness has a definition. Those women, if indeed
they're now 'cured', don't fit it.

Post by Grant Robertson
It also
appears that your definition of shyness is what I would call severe
social anxiety.

Like I said, you're free to define your world the way you see fit.

Post by Grant Robertson
These women had trouble meeting men at all. They couldn't bring
themselves to talk to men or present themselves for men to approach in
any kind of manner that would lead to a relationship. They were all
strictly platonic with their men friends and had no boyfriends. They were
all convinced that no man whom they were attracted to would ever be
attracted to them. They said they didn't know what to say or how to act.
Just like shy men.
By simply getting themselves out there these formerly shy women were able
to have enough men approach them that they realized the error of their
preconceived notions. The notions that they had to do anything special or
be anyone other than whom they were.

This sounds like basic insecurity and lack of experience imo, not shyness.

Post by Grant Robertson
Really and truly, just being a woman
is about all it takes for most women. Yes, very large women or the
extreme minority of women that I have seen who are really just ugly (only
about 5, in my entire life) have to try a bit harder or be out there
longer. But there are still men who will eventually approach even them. I
know one woman who is pretty darned ugly and has a bad attitude. Her
husband tells me that he actively pursued her and that is what I have to
do to get a woman myself. So, someone found attractive, and pursued, even
her. (Granted, if a woman wants to get a man who is higher up on the
social or financial ladder then she usually has to gussy herself up a
bit. But if no women did this then even rich men would settle for plain
women over no women at all. And from the looks of the wives of some of
the rich men I have seen, it is certainly not only looks and body that
must attract these rich men.)

True.

Post by Grant Robertson
In contrast, shy men have to do a lot more than simply go out and show a
bit more of their neckline than their adams apple.

To get laid, yes, they have to be more assertive.

Post by Grant Robertson
They have to learn
what signals a woman gives off when she is ready to be approached. Even
if the woman doesn't know she is sending the signals or what they are. If
a man misreads those signals then the woman either thinks the man is a
cad or a loser. Only those men who can walk the fine tightrope of signal
reading and appropriate actions at appropriate times can get past the
built in selectiveness of most women. If all men dressed the same and
drove the same car it would still be the men who could read the signals
who would win the day, even over the good looking men.

Yes, this is true as far as I've experienced it. You're very observant.

Post by Grant Robertson
Now, if a man is exceptionally good looking then he doesn't have to do
much of anything. I have seen women throw themselves at one friend I had
who was exceptionally good looking. Multiple women per day approached
him. Oddly, he was too shy to do anything about it. I told him the same
thing I told the shy women. Just say yes every once in a while. His
shyness quickly went away.

His shyness really went away or the greater part of his fear of being
approached? Maybe I misunderstand. Do you actually mean his shyness in
all other areas of life disappeared because he desensitized himself to
being approached by women?

Post by Grant Robertson
Now this only works for the very few
exceptionally good looking men. There are just enough women who are
forward enough - especially in California, in the 1980s - that they will
overcome their normal inhibitions and approach a man. The rest of us men
have to do all the work. That is all there is to it.
Until all women in general start being much more forgiving about first
impressions, then this is just the way the world works and we all just
have to get used to it.

Hm. I like most of what you say here. You seem a thoughtful person.
Don't know why the others had a problem with you. (the disrespecting
remarks I read when I first took notice of the conversation)

[meg]

Sorry, I'm replying to Grant and Lisa both in this, because I'm lazy.

Post by Lisa

Post by Grant Robertson
I
guess that is because most regular people only use the term "shy"
when referring to people who are afraid to approach the opposite sex
in the context of seeking a relationship.

Totally disagree with this. I can't count the number of times I've been described as shy by
"regular people" when it had nothing to do with dating. Not just because I'm bad at counting,
but because it's a lot.

Post by Lisa

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Lisa
Those women weren't shy. Marriage/companionship/sex doesn't cure shyness.

You don't know.

It doesn't.

Post by Lisa

Post by Grant Robertson
By simply getting themselves out there these formerly shy women were
able to have enough men approach them that they realized the error of
their preconceived notions. The notions that they had to do anything
special or be anyone other than whom they were.

This sounds like basic insecurity and lack of experience imo, not shyness.

I agree.

Post by Lisa

Post by Grant Robertson
Now, if a man is exceptionally good looking then he doesn't have to
do much of anything. I have seen women throw themselves at one friend
I had who was exceptionally good looking. Multiple women per day
approached him. Oddly, he was too shy to do anything about it. I told
him the same thing I told the shy women. Just say yes every once in a
while. His shyness quickly went away.

His shyness really went away or the greater part of his fear of being
approached? Maybe I misunderstand. Do you actually mean his shyness
in all other areas of life disappeared because he desensitized himself
to being approached by women?

I think only applying the term shyness to relationship-anxiety is pretty ridiculous. Virtually
everyone deals with nerves and insecurity and having to learn what to do when they're dating (or
trying to). That doesn't make them shy, that makes them human. It's a lovely miracle cure he
suggests ("'Say yes!' and Say Goodbye to Shyness!"), but whatever it's curing isn't the same as
someone who struggles with shyness on a day to day basis.

[Sklenge]

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Lisa
So... if I'm a sane, shy woman who happens to be married, I'm of no use
to you comaradarie-or-advice wise, eh?

OK for advice. But, by definition, not much for camaraderie. The lives
and suffering of shy men seem to me to be very different from those of
shy women. Especially shy women who are married. Shy men are usually
looking for a relationship or at least the skills to find a relationship.
They live amongst a sea of women who expect to be approached in a certain
manner and yet they have no clue what this certain manner is. Even shy
women seem to expect men to use this same subtle approach and will fend
off men who don't have the appropriate skills.

Don't get me started.

Oh, alrighty then... shy women really don't want to be approached. No,
really, they don't: they're shy; the idea of being picked up is frightening
and tawdry. However, I am perfectly willing to accept that I might be the
only previously shy female in the world who felt this way but, bearing in
mind how boringly average I am, I doubt it.

My advice to a man [shy or otherwise] who wants to pick up a shy woman
specifically is: don't bother, it's not worth the work - you have to wait
until she's no longer shy and can actually pick you up or, at the very
least, can match your level of confidence.

Incidentally, Grant Robertson, many people actually enjoy the subtle and the
assertive romantic play that constitutes the approaching and "fending off"
that goes on between the sexes. So I wouldn't denigrate it as being mere
female snootiness any more than it is all about male arrogance. If you're
shy you probably won't understand that therein lies the fun and the thrill
of getting to know people [from whatever motive]. Well you might understand
it in theory but can you do it? Can you enjoy it?

Post by Grant Robertson
I have solved the difficulties of many shy women friends by giving them
this simple advice: Go to a bar and wear a shirt that *doesn't* cover up
your collar bones. They don't even need to really show any cleavage but
it helps. Men will approach them and all they have to do is say, "Yes"
every once in a while. The feminist, shy women may claim this is a
fantasy, but it works every darned time. I do not have a single shy
female friend who was willing to take this advice who hasn't completely
gotten over her shyness and been able to get lots of dates,
relationships, and or marriage.

I would think that your advice would only work when a woman is ready to
discard at least 80% of her shyness in the first place. So how does she do
that then?

My shyness at that age included a real aversion to exposing my femininity to
male onlookers [and I still feel that way]. So showing off any part of my
anatomy to strangers was totally off the agenda. I don't even like seeing
other women and men dressing like tramps. Your advice would have been quite
abhorrent to me, albeit honest and practical.

I could just as fairly say to you: "just be more dominant and masculine";
this would be a comparable piece of advice to your "just show off more of
your body and be more feminine". Both pieces of advice are spot-on but
worthless to shy people.

[Grant Robertson]

In article <C2C18B81.5A3C6%***@yahoo.co.uk>, ***@yahoo.co.uk
says...

Post by Sklenge
Oh, alrighty then... shy women really don't want to be approached. No,
really, they don't: they're shy;

Perhaps, but the experience I have had with friends of mine says
otherwise. Naturally, they weren't cured of their shyness on the first
try. But simply getting out there and getting used to being approached
got them used to it and then they realized that they didn't have to do
anything special. If they couldn't think of anything to say, it didn't
matter. That was the man's job.

Post by Sklenge
the idea of being picked up is frightening and tawdry.

You seem to be equating the notion of being approached with being picked
up. Now, if you go straight to the worst meat-market bar then you are
likely to be "picked up on" but that is different from being "picked
up." Only you can choose whether you actually get "picked up." "Picked up
on" is simply having a man come on rather strong and usually with
somewhat canned lines or questions. If you go to a more friendly bar then
you will avoid that. People will really just start with normal,
appropriate, "nice to meet you" behavior.

Post by Sklenge
My advice to a man [shy or otherwise] who wants to pick up a shy woman
specifically is: don't bother, it's not worth the work - you have to wait
until she's no longer shy and can actually pick you up or, at the very
least, can match your level of confidence.

Well, a shy woman definitely requires a different approach. And a shy man
is probably not going to have the skills to break through her barriers.
Besides, if they are *both* shy, don't they already have matching levels
of confidence?

Post by Sklenge
Incidentally, Grant Robertson, many people actually enjoy the subtle and the
assertive romantic play that constitutes the approaching and "fending off"
that goes on between the sexes.

I know that. But those are the people who know how to do it. People
rarely enjoy doing what they both don't know how to do and rarely succeed
at.

Post by Sklenge
So I wouldn't denigrate it as being mere
female snootiness any more than it is all about male arrogance.

I didn't. You seem to be reading a bit too much into what I say. Perhaps
you are arguing against what you believe to be a common notion but a
notion which I did not actually state. I do not denigrate the natural
selectiveness of women as snootiness. But I do recognize that it is
there. It is not just playful entertainment. If that were so then women
would be more forgiving when a man didn't get it just right. It would
simply be a minor party foul. As it is, a woman's natural selectiveness
is just something that men have to deal with. It is not bad. It is not
intentional. And, therefore, it cannot be "snooty." It is just there and
must be dealt with.

As you say, there are some men who enjoy dealing with it. Just like there
are some men who enjoy dealing with riding a bicycle up a steep hill. It
is a challenge and it is fun on the way down the other side. But then
there are some men who never learned to ride a bicycle and who find it a
chore. Once they do learn how to ride, then it will be fun. But, until
then, they skin their knees a lot and they cry.

Post by Sklenge
If you're
shy you probably won't understand that therein lies the fun and the thrill
of getting to know people [from whatever motive]. Well you might understand
it in theory but can you do it? Can you enjoy it?

Unlike a lot of people, I do have the ability to understand the
implications of something even if I don't fully understand the thing
itself. I can understand that people enjoy getting into a good fight
(boxers, martial artists) but I don't know how to fight nor can I truly
empathize with their enjoyment. I especially can't empathize with what
some men get out of a "good" bar fight. But some still do enjoy it and I
can understand what primitive portions of the brain are stimulated by
that activity.

As I have said before, people enjoy what they can do. Even if the only
thing that they can "do" is merely the slow learning of how to "do"
something else. If they can't even "do" the learning part, then they very
rarely enjoy the activity itself. Therefore, when I get to where I can
"do" the activity called "flirting" then maybe I will enjoy it. As it is
I have to be content with enjoying the more basic activity of simply
learning - step by step - *how* to flirt. I may not have many successes
with the actual flirting (as in getting dates or even phone numbers) but
I do have enough successes with learning each successive step or bit that
it is enough to keep me trying. And I try to "do" my learning in a manner
that is enjoyable to me. Namely, by talking to people and getting to know
them. I, at least, like that part. If I get in a bit of a flirtation now
and then and don't look like an idiot then I feel I have really
succeeded. That success makes it enjoyable.

Post by Sklenge
I would think that your advice would only work when a woman is ready to
discard at least 80% of her shyness in the first place. So how does she do
that then?

Well, I guess that depends on just how "shy" she is in the first place.
If she is so severely shy that she can't even go into a bar - and I was
there just a few years ago - then she should try more casual places like
coffee shops, just as I have advised shy men and just as I did when I
finally started getting out. I realize that it is often scarier for women
to go out alone. In that case, women need to get someone to go with them.
If a woman has absolutely no friends, male or female, whom they can go
hang out with, then there are some therapists who are willing to do this.

I was lucky in that there was a popular coffee shop right next to a
popular bar. A lot of the same people hung out at both places. After
hanging out at the coffee shop, I got to know - or at least become
familiar with - some of the regulars of the bar. This finally made it
easier for me to get up the courage to go into that bar. If you knew how
many times I had my hand on the door-handle of that bar, but then didn't
open the door and go in, you would be amazed. I walked past that place
once a week or so for almost a year. But I kept walking past and I
avoided the negative internal reactions that so many others seem to
express here. Yes, at first, I told myself that those people were too
snobby and would never accept me. But I fought back those feelings -
sometimes using things I had read in the "Feeling Good,..." book - and,
over time, finally made myself go in. The first few times I could only
stand to be in there for an hour or so. I was still convinced that no one
there would ever like me, and I made up all kinds of reasons. But I just
kept going. Eventually, I got comfortable enough to start talking to
people and people started talking to me. One young woman even said to me,
"No. You are not allowed to come to 'The Patio' and then sit there and be
anti-social. What's your name?"

So, if a woman is so shy that she cannot even walk into a bar, then she
is no more shy than I was when I started. (If she can't even get out of
the house then that is agoraphobia and there are treatments for that.)
All it really takes is the determination that the sickness (being lonely)
is much worse than the cure (the temporary stress of being in an
uncomfortable situation). I never said it was easy as pie for a shy woman
to get out there. What I did say is that getting out there is about all
she really has to do. Enough people will approach a woman soon enough and
often enough that she will get over her shyness much sooner than an
equivalently shy man. Even if a woman is too shy to even respond when men
approach her - as in: can barely answer when he asks questions - then
other women will approach that shy woman and befriend her. Naturally,
this is more likely to happen at a "friendly" bar, as I mentioned
earlier.

Post by Sklenge
My shyness at that age included a real aversion to exposing my femininity to
male onlookers [and I still feel that way]. So showing off any part of my
anatomy to strangers was totally off the agenda. I don't even like seeing
other women and men dressing like tramps. Your advice would have been quite
abhorrent to me, albeit honest and practical.

How much of your body are you talking about not "showing off to
strangers?" Remember, all I stated as a requirement was not covering up
your collar bones. Cleavage is optional. These women friends used to
always wear shirts that went higher than the normal men's T-shirt. That
is usually a subtle signal that a woman is not open to being approached.
That and the hunching forward of the shoulders to hide the chest. Even I
knew that way back then. I'm not talking about suddenly switching to
halter tops with no bra. You can just wear a normal, modest bra, under a
normal, modest shirt that is simply more open at the neck. All you need
to really show is the top of your sternum and you have crossed the line
from "Don't talk to me!" to "I might be quiet but I won't bite your head
off." Showing the top of your sternum is not being a tramp. Showing off
the top of your xiphoid process may be. It really depends on the
situation, the intention of the owner of said xiphoid process, and the
temperament of the observer.

Post by Sklenge
I could just as fairly say to you: "just be more dominant and masculine";
this would be a comparable piece of advice to your "just show off more of
your body and be more feminine". Both pieces of advice are spot-on but
worthless to shy people.

Now you truly *are* reading more into what I wrote, and actually quoting
what I did not say. I did not say, "and be more feminine." Someone else
in your past may have said that, but I did not. You seem to be arguing
against what you have either heard in the past or made up in your own
head rather than what I said. From what I have seen, a woman does not
have to "be more feminine." All she has to do is change one tiny thing
about how she dresses and then get the hell out there. Again, getting the
hell out there may not be easy, but it is about the same for men and
women - both of whom will say it is easier for the other, for various
reasons. Once a man "gets the hell out there" he also must learn a vast
litany of social cues and body language signals and the appropriate
responses and timings to all of them. A woman doesn't have to learn all
of these signals because she either gives them off naturally or most
normal men will simply soldier on even when they don't get the "best"
feedback signals.

So, it truly is different for men than it is for women. I'm not saying it
is "easy for women." But I am saying it is "easier," noting that easier
may still be pretty difficult for some people.

[u***@hotmail.com]

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Sklenge
My advice to a man [shy or otherwise] who wants to pick up a shy woman
specifically is: don't bother, it's not worth the work - you have to wait
until she's no longer shy and can actually pick you up or, at the very
least, can match your level of confidence.

I think there is more than one kind of shyness. There are those who
haven't initially learned the skills of talking to others esp the opp
sex, but who after a while pick them up and then largely leave shyness
behind, then there are those who have obstacles to overcoming
shyness. Some people aren't ever easily going to be able to say the
yes.

Post by Grant Robertson
As I have said before, people enjoy what they can do. Even if the only
thing that they can "do" is merely the slow learning of how to "do"
something else. If they can't even "do" the learning part, then they very
rarely enjoy the activity itself. Therefore, when I get to where I can
"do" the activity called "flirting" then maybe I will enjoy it. As it is
I have to be content with enjoying the more basic activity of simply
learning - step by step - *how* to flirt. I may not have many successes
with the actual flirting (as in getting dates or even phone numbers) but
I do have enough successes with learning each successive step or bit that
it is enough to keep me trying. And I try to "do" my learning in a manner
that is enjoyable to me. Namely, by talking to people and getting to know
them. I, at least, like that part. If I get in a bit of a flirtation now
and then and don't look like an idiot then I feel I have really
succeeded. That success makes it enjoyable.

Some people can't flirt.
They don't enjoy any part of that kind of social contact.

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Sklenge
I would think that your advice would only work when a woman is ready to
discard at least 80% of her shyness in the first place. So how does she do
that then?

Well, I guess that depends on just how "shy" she is in the first place.
If she is so severely shy that she can't even go into a bar - and I was
there just a few years ago - then she should try more casual places like
coffee shops, just as I have advised shy men and just as I did when I
finally started getting out. I realize that it is often scarier for women
to go out alone. In that case, women need to get someone to go with them.
If a woman has absolutely no friends, male or female, whom they can go
hang out with, then there are some therapists who are willing to do this.

Who needs a therapist, just go somewhere alone where no one knows you-
if you make a fool of yourself- well there is no one to tell anyone
you know so no lasting consequences. Worked for me. People then
surprisingly approach you and make conversation.

Post by Grant Robertson
I was lucky in that there was a popular coffee shop right next to a
popular bar. A lot of the same people hung out at both places. After
hanging out at the coffee shop, I got to know - or at least become
familiar with - some of the regulars of the bar. This finally made it
easier for me to get up the courage to go into that bar. If you knew how
many times I had my hand on the door-handle of that bar, but then didn't
open the door and go in, you would be amazed. I walked past that place
once a week or so for almost a year. But I kept walking past and I
avoided the negative internal reactions that so many others seem to
express here. Yes, at first, I told myself that those people were too
snobby and would never accept me. But I fought back those feelings -
sometimes using things I had read in the "Feeling Good,..." book - and,
over time, finally made myself go in. The first few times I could only
stand to be in there for an hour or so. I was still convinced that no one
there would ever like me, and I made up all kinds of reasons. But I just
kept going. Eventually, I got comfortable enough to start talking to
people and people started talking to me. One young woman even said to me,
"No. You are not allowed to come to 'The Patio' and then sit there and be
anti-social. What's your name?"
So, if a woman is so shy that she cannot even walk into a bar, then she
is no more shy than I was when I started. (If she can't even get out of
the house then that is agoraphobia and there are treatments for that.)
All it really takes is the determination that the sickness (being lonely)
is much worse than the cure (the temporary stress of being in an
uncomfortable situation). I never said it was easy as pie for a shy woman
to get out there. What I did say is that getting out there is about all
she really has to do. Enough people will approach a woman soon enough and
often enough that she will get over her shyness much sooner than an
equivalently shy man. Even if a woman is too shy to even respond when men
approach her - as in: can barely answer when he asks questions - then
other women will approach that shy woman and befriend her. Naturally,
this is more likely to happen at a "friendly" bar, as I mentioned
earlier.

Post by Sklenge
My shyness at that age included a real aversion to exposing my femininity to
male onlookers [and I still feel that way]. So showing off any part of my
anatomy to strangers was totally off the agenda. I don't even like seeing
other women and men dressing like tramps. Your advice would have been quite
abhorrent to me, albeit honest and practical.

How much of your body are you talking about not "showing off to
strangers?" Remember, all I stated as a requirement was not covering up
your collar bones. Cleavage is optional. These women friends used to
always wear shirts that went higher than the normal men's T-shirt. That
is usually a subtle signal that a woman is not open to being approached.
That and the hunching forward of the shoulders to hide the chest. Even I
knew that way back then. I'm not talking about suddenly switching to
halter tops with no bra. You can just wear a normal, modest bra, under a
normal, modest shirt that is simply more open at the neck. All you need
to really show is the top of your sternum and you have crossed the line
from "Don't talk to me!" to "I might be quiet but I won't bite your head
off." Showing the top of your sternum is not being a tramp. Showing off
the top of your xiphoid process may be. It really depends on the
situation, the intention of the owner of said xiphoid process, and the
temperament of the observer.

A woman doesn't need to show any of her body from the neck down.

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Sklenge
I could just as fairly say to you: "just be more dominant and masculine";
this would be a comparable piece of advice to your "just show off more of
your body and be more feminine". Both pieces of advice are spot-on but
worthless to shy people.

[Michaela Mackenzie]

Post by u***@hotmail.com

Post by Grant Robertson

Post by Sklenge
My advice to a man [shy or otherwise] who wants to pick up a shy woman
specifically is: don't bother, it's not worth the work - you have to wait
until she's no longer shy and can actually pick you up or, at the very
least, can match your level of confidence.

I think there is more than one kind of shyness. There are those who
haven't initially learned the skills of talking to others esp the opp
sex, but who after a while pick them up and then largely leave shyness
behind, then there are those who have obstacles to overcoming
shyness. Some people aren't ever easily going to be able to say the
yes.

Post by Grant Robertson
As I have said before, people enjoy what they can do. Even if the only
thing that they can "do" is merely the slow learning of how to "do"
something else. If they can't even "do" the learning part, then they very
rarely enjoy the activity itself. Therefore, when I get to where I can
"do" the activity called "flirting" then maybe I will enjoy it. As it is
I have to be content with enjoying the more basic activity of simply
learning - step by step - *how* to flirt. I may not have many successes
with the actual flirting (as in getting dates or even phone numbers) but
I do have enough successes with learning each successive step or bit that
it is enough to keep me trying. And I try to "do" my learning in a manner
that is enjoyable to me. Namely, by talking to people and getting to know
them. I, at least, like that part. If I get in a bit of a flirtation now
and then and don't look like an idiot then I feel I have really
succeeded. That success makes it enjoyable.

Some people can't flirt.
They don't enjoy any part of that kind of social contact.

Isn't that a little bit like saying "She'd be a lousy wife"
when you haven't even seen her with any men yet?

(Ok, it's not that great an example, but perhaps you will
see what I'm trying to say anyway...)

- Michaela

[Troll]

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

So we will be adequate for you when some female provides us with social
proof?

[Sklenge]

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

I wonder which newsgroup is the maddest.

I've found that the newsgroups I subscribe to go through phases of weirdness
and niceness and nastiness. Enjoy the ride, after all you're part of
everyone's pleasure and pain now.

[ThePuttKing]

Post by Sklenge

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

I wonder which newsgroup is the maddest.
I've found that the newsgroups I subscribe to go through phases of weirdness
and niceness and nastiness. Enjoy the ride, after all you're part of
everyone's pleasure and pain now.

Sklenge, Where have you been ?, You haven't been on here for awhile ?

Also did it flood in your city ?, We got it real bad. It was a crazy
day were everybody seemed to have a story to tell; Houses flooding etc.

[Sklenge]

Post by ThePuttKing

Post by Sklenge

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

I wonder which newsgroup is the maddest.
I've found that the newsgroups I subscribe to go through phases of weirdness
and niceness and nastiness. Enjoy the ride, after all you're part of
everyone's pleasure and pain now.

Sklenge, Where have you been ?, You haven't been on here for awhile ?

I've started a new job and I'm too tired to read all the posts. Even at the
weekend I just can't face switching on the computer.

Working 9-5 and driving 40mins each way is likely to be the end of me.

Post by ThePuttKing
Also did it flood in your city ?, We got it real bad. It was a crazy
day were everybody seemed to have a story to tell; Houses flooding etc.

It rained like a bastad here in the West but we live on a hill, so no
flooding.

You're right, I should have at least posted up a note wishing you well in
the recent bad weather. I hope you weren't flooded out. All our family in
and around there seem to have been lucky with very little damage. Even the
ones in Hessle. I've been watching Youtube to see how bad it was and Newland
Avenue, my old neighbourhood, seemed to turn into a river that day, but I
think newland orphanage was on higher ground.

Have the water and sewage drained away yet? And have the council cleared
away the gunge?

[ThePuttKing]

Post by Sklenge

Post by ThePuttKing

Post by Sklenge

Post by Grant Robertson
Out of the millions of shy people out in the world, and the high
proportion of them who turn to computers as a way of interracting, I
would have thought that there would be far more sane but shy people in
this newsgroup to actually get some advice from. Unfortunately, there
seem to only be about 5 people who aren't crazy. Two of those people are
women and the other three are men who are married or have a long time
girlfriend. Not much comaradarie for a sane man who just happens to be
shy.

I wonder which newsgroup is the maddest.
I've found that the newsgroups I subscribe to go through phases of weirdness
and niceness and nastiness. Enjoy the ride, after all you're part of
everyone's pleasure and pain now.

Sklenge, Where have you been ?, You haven't been on here for awhile ?

I've started a new job and I'm too tired to read all the posts. Even at the
weekend I just can't face switching on the computer.
Working 9-5 and driving 40mins each way is likely to be the end of me.

Post by ThePuttKing
Also did it flood in your city ?, We got it real bad. It was a crazy
day were everybody seemed to have a story to tell; Houses flooding etc.

It rained like a bastad here in the West but we live on a hill, so no
flooding.
You're right, I should have at least posted up a note wishing you well in
the recent bad weather. I hope you weren't flooded out. All our family in
and around there seem to have been lucky with very little damage. Even the
ones in Hessle. I've been watching Youtube to see how bad it was and Newland
Avenue, my old neighbourhood, seemed to turn into a river that day, but I
think newland orphanage was on higher ground.
Have the water and sewage drained away yet? And have the council cleared
away the gunge?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I read somewhere that it will take 2 years to fully recover from the
floods. Some schools are still closed. Many people are living in
caravans or temporary accomodation. They were all kinds of stories
like people's cars floating away. I think most of the main roads were
closed on that day

We live in an old house so we didn't suffer any flooding. My Dad said
that all the new estates (Bransholme etc) flooded because they don't
have good enough drainage systems.